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BryanL
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# Posted: 28 Nov 2014 18:25
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Has anyone here used replacement pocket windows instead of new construction windows? Putting together the plans for my cabin build and can get new replacement windows for $35 each. New construction windows are much, much more. Replacement windows don't have a flange. Other than that, not sure what other issues I would have using them.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 28 Nov 2014 22:01
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Not sure exactly what you mean, but to me a replacement window is meant to fit into the jamb, or fixed outer frame, that is existing in the wall. You take out the old sashes, or frames that hold the glass, leaving the jamb frames, and put in new sashes with glass into the old frames. So anyway, new replacement sashes without jamb frames will need jambs of some sort to hold them, to hinge them, or for them to slide on/within. If you just instal them as fixed windows you will need to flash them so they don't leak, not sure how that will be done effectively without flanges
- a former wood sash and door millman
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2014 01:49
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A fin-less replacement window is measured to fit the old opening perfectly. Or as close to perfect without being bigger. Then you set it, square it, shim and screw it in place. Caulk and trim it out, paint.
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BryanL
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2014 08:00
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These are what I am looking at. I would think I could level and shim and then nail them i through the sides right into the studs framing the window opening. Insulate, and caulk and then figure out how to waterproof from the outside with trim, etc. Bad idea?
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2014 09:30
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Those are meant to fit into a frame that is already water sealed around the edges. So long as you work hard at sealing them it may work, but no guarantees. Ultimately your sealing will depend on caulk which will eventually crack and need to be redone. The nice thing about properly flashed windows with flanges is that they do not depend on a caulk seal. The flashing is overlapped with the fins to make a shingling effect that sheds any water away without requiring a caulk seal. Caulk is great until it cracks.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2014 09:51 - Edited by: Steve_S
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Bryan, don't use nails on the windows, screws only and be gentle.
These do not have any form of brick molding or flashing edges, so you'd have to figure something out to prevent wind, water penetration. There are a few options possible. They also appear to be for a 2x4 walls so if your building 2x6, you can use that to your advantage for a detail on the inside, by giving you a deeper window opening that you can trim out with wood or drywall...
As you are building from scratch now, you could make your openings to accommodate such windows by making your rough openings to fit (leaving a bit of space for shims & insulation, 1/2" would do it nicely).
I redid an old house built in the late 1800's and had to replace the original jambs. I used 1.5" thick pine to make the smooth jambs and 3/4" thick x 3-1/2" wide cedar on the outer edge face against the walls. Then used "insert" windows which fit into the jambs (similar to what your looking at). I put a 1/2" deep dado cut @ top & bottom of the jamb, glued & screwed it making sure it was perfectly square before putting it into the wall frame. Note that the jambs were tight fit to the original lumber of the house and I screwed them into place with a good healthy bead of Butyl Caulking under the "facing to exterior wall face" to ensure a seal.
I did it this way to match the original construction but used the PL-Premium Glue & Galvanised nails for the jamb. I also used Butyl Caulk between the facing outside to the wall (not visible to people) to make sure there was a positive long term seal between the wood. Cedar was chosen for the face for durability and to match the building. I did 11 Windows like this (I already had the Window Inserts as a previous reno had them installed already, so I recycled them when gutting the house). After the jambs were installed, I slipped the insert windows in and 3/4" from the outer edge, so they were almost flush to the outside, then put a 1/2" quarter round around the outside perimeter of the windows (with a thin bead of butyl to seal window frame and jamb). Lesson Learned: would have been easier to put the 1/4 round in before the windows, to provide a consistent & even window stop & not have the pain of trying to do it on a ladder 20' off the ground !
One thing I diverged from the original to new, was the original used an angled cedar edging at the top of the window facing boards as a water drip edge, I used aluminium flashing instead, sealed to the wall with Bluskin-WB.
In 10 years that I was in there afterwards... not a leak, air or water and no problems whatsoever. I may have over done it, or under done it, pending on who's opinion but I wanted things to look as they did originally and figuring that the original jambs lasted over 100 years that way, twas good enough.
Here's a couple of quick rough doodles to show how I did it... Should have noted in the images, the bottom piece of the jambs were cut to have a slight down slope for the last 3/4"... from the edge of where the window frame was going to be out, for drainage.
I did take photo's (pre digital) but they have been lost over the years... I know the people living in that house now and they haven't had any issues either.
PS: I used Butyl Caulking because it stays gooey & flexible forever but do not depend only on caulking, proper flashing and sealing is a must. If your putting Vinyl Siding or anything else, make sure you accommodate for that.
Window Facing
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Window Jamb details
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Wilbour
Member
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2014 10:01
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You will save money on the purchase but spend on trim caulking ect. In the end it will still be cheaper to buy the insert windows. The fins make install so much easier though. I waited until Home Depot had their 15% off sale. Still cost me over $700 for 6 new finned windows but I think it was worth it.
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creeky
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2014 10:30
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you might want to google "dudley boxes for windows". greenbuildingadvisor has a tutorial.
Just went with both methods. the fins do make install way easy tho. if time is an issue.
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BryanL
Member
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2014 12:22
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Thanks for all the reply's. Wow Steve, really appreciate what you wrote. Nice thing for now is I have time to figure it out.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2014 08:26
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Glad to have bee of help BryanL. At least your not in a rush but @ $35 a Window that's a pretty good deal. If you can find windows with brick mold or something could make it easier (seeing how that looks like a window recycling place).
I'm using all "recovered" windows for my cabin, they are between 3 & 5 years old with Low-E Argon Vinyl and luckily all have matching brick moldings on them. My smaller windows cost me $40 ea and the 3 big windows I scored were $60 ea.
The Dudley boxes would work quite nicely I would think, possibly do a little aluminium cladding on the outside and they'd last pretty long without problems.
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BryanL
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2014 08:48
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$35 is hard to beat but I think what I'm going to do is keep scouring Craigslist ads and pick up new construction windows as they pop up. Might be able to get it done for free. Thanks for tall the advice. I'm not as astute of a carpenter as many of you and hate to do something I regret, using the wrong type of windows sounds like one of those situations. It can be done, but you better be competent. Is it a safe assumption to make that if a window has a nailing flange it would be the right type of window to use in new construction?
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2014 10:17
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Well Bryan, it really depends on a number of factors I suppose. You've been looking at Cabin Kits, building from scratch with your own design and so on. Cabin Kits are good in general and some are more flexible than others... Most often the Cabin Kits are using bog standard sizes for windows, doors etc with assumptions for new products being used throughout. You mentioned an Amish cabin builder in one of your other postings... The Amish are amazing craftsmen (all those that I have seen anyways) and I'm sure if you work with them, they could accommodate things.
I've looked at many variations but came back to the KISS principle. I've reached that because I'm using new, used (recovered and/or upcycled) materials and fittings in the mix. An "organic" build if you will. The issue with using used windows etc, is making sure that you accommodate the sizing and dealing with "quirks" that go with it.
The downside, is that sometimes you get a great deal on something (like the $35 windows) but then later realize that it will cost you time & money to make them work in your application which in the end may not be such a great deal after all. You know the old saying "penny wise & dollar foolish"... well I've done it and learned some expensive lessons in the past few decades.
I "was" rushing to get my cabin built for this winter but life, Murphy's Laws, sanity check from Maggie my dearest and a few other things all colluded to slow that down till this spring (most rational & logical considering I'm in North Eastern Ontario Canada). So the winter will be spent fine tuning & tweaking what I want o build plus sourcing materials and bits for the build in a slightly more leisurely & patient pace. Fortunately I am designing & building it myself from scratch so "organic construction" can be applied and THE GOOD FOLKS HERE because they have given me other ideas & considerations to incorporate into my own build. Then are other sites & projects which give me various inspirations & ideas to further muddle my plans - but it's cool, as the evolution is pretty fun too...
One thought, you may want to look at local window manufacturers in your area and see what "odd balls" they have laying around. Quite often there are mistakes made by misreading measurements or putting on the wrong colour cladding etc... These wind up sitting somewhere waiting to be sold or... There are good deals to be had if you look around.
Something to ponder... You say your not an astute carpenter / builder... part of the fun of building it for yourself is the learning experience. Sure there will be moments where you'd make a Cursing Drunken Sailor on a Saturday might seem like a choir boy but it's all part of the experience of learning. You need to offset the cost of having someone else do it for you or doing it yourself and what your budget priorities are. There is also the satisfaction as knowing "I built this myself" and that has it's own special rewards too...
The folks here are really good about giving info, details & suggestions... MntnDon, Creeky, Bldginsp and others have helped me sort a few things out (especially the black hole of solar power stuff) so that I can wrap my brain around it...
I'll be blogging what I have done this fall over the winter as building / working outside is going to be regulated by Old Man Winter & Mother Nature arguing who get's what day to do the nasty on us poor human critters...
Sorry for the long partly off-topic reply but some thing's to ponder on before you grab the hammer and start...
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