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optimistic
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2014 09:31am
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I have been heating my tiny (12'x12' with 13.5' ft ceilings & loft) with wood fire since last winter. I have this stove: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Englander-1-200-sq-ft-Wood-Burning-Stove-17-VL/202051504
My problem is controlling the heat. It is either way too hot or gets cold too fast.
I am now confident that my wood (that has been split and stacked for over a year) is NOT the issue.
Basically, my loft gets so hot it is unbearable but if I don't load my stove enough it dies in a few hours (2-3) and then the cabin gets frozen.
I think that this is mainly because of my small space...
I have two ideas how to help with this and wanted advice on it.
Idea #1:
Get a fan and run it on a thermostat so it brings in cold air into the cabin and keeps my cabin in a good temp while allowing me to fully load my stove.
Idea #2:
Get this http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200631838_200631838?isSearch=44638
and during the day use the wood stove while at night use a combination of them. Essentially, which I still need to make sure is even possible, I will load the wood stove a few hours before bed time and tri to control heat with windows and before we go to bed - I will close all windows and allow the gas stove to take over with its thermostat. I hope that has the wood stove dies off it will take over and make sure we are comfortable.
Thoughts?
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hueyjazz
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2014 11:52am
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I take it you have a thermometer in the flue above the wood stove and you control the damper to allow correct combustion? Type of wood you burn also makes a big difference. I had a huge wood stove that came with the cabin that wasn't air tight and had the same problem. I switch to a much smaller stove with fan attached to the stove. I also use a ceiling fan to mix the air in the cabin. Loft still gets hot but I have a window up there I crack open a bit that helps temper just so.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2014 12:34pm
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Your link is to the 15000 btu Housewarmer, they also make a 8000 btu which would be best for your very small cabin IMO. I agree that a thermostat controlled gas heater is the best solution to the sleep-over-night problem.
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SE Ohio
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2014 02:17pm
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Is the cabin insulated? Without insulation one cools down quickly.
O2 Cool sells a battery operated fan with thermostat. It would be good to force some hot air down from the loft at low speed. To much air movement = drafty feel.
My 14 x 22 cabin is insulated and has a woodstove. I can usually keep it about right for 4-6 hours after we turn in if outside temps aren't too low. Sometimes I have to get up and open a window... My best bet is to throw a good-sized log on at bedtime and throttle back on the stove air inlet and damper. This gives me a longer burn time. It might last 6 hours or so, and it's sometimes a bit chilly by 5 am if it is very cold outdoors. In that case I throw in a few smaller split pieces and go back to bed. In a year or two, I'll have my wife trained to do the 5 am feed 
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creeky
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2014 03:20pm
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optimistic. i posted an 8k heater in another post. and i agree with bldginsp as to the size of the heater. you'll save a little money. but that's a great price and too big is no problem when it's on a thermostat.
insulation is the real key. when I insulated my "shizzer shack" a 8x16 with 10' ceilings (heated with direct vent propane). boy did you ever notice as the insulation went in. at r15 and leaky there were noticeable layers in temp. ceiling hot. window level warm. floor level icy.
but by the time i sealed (very important) and finished insulating (r25/r30 ceiling). each step of insulation delivered a more uniform temperature floor to ceiling.
so as SE Ohio says... insulate. and I would add. seal. if you have temp variation from floor to ceiling ...
but ... the issue you have is one much talked about. the 3 a.m. problem with wood stoves.
in my very humble experience. I have learned:
one. pile a bunch of wood into the fireplace and damp everything down to minimum. and get up at 3 a.m. and add more wood.
two. get a small propane heater to supplement. follow step one and let the heater take over at 3 a.m. Works for me.
three. find a wife who will fill the stove for you at 3 a.m. ... ... ... sorry. had trouble getting off the floor.
oh. I've been told when "banking" the wood stove. it's a good idea to pack the new wood in tightly and then put the live fire overtop the new wood. not put the wood overtop the already burning fire. no. i don't know how they do it either.
good luck.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2014 03:34pm
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You've hit the problem with heating small cabins square in the nose. Most of them are too small for wood heating. Many small cabins are best suited for propane only, or could have both propane and wood. If the place is used in cold cold weather it is nice to be able to warm it up quickly with both running. Daytime cold weather use lends itself well to feeding a small wood fire a little at a time, never overheating. At times I restart a fire a few times a day. Cold nights are often better suited to a propane wall heater/furnace. There are also the ones that are designed to fit between two standard sized wall stud bays and use floor to ceiling convection heating to distribute the hot air.
Problems can arise when using a propane fueled furnace that is too large for the space being heated. Yes, the thermostat will turn off the main burner when the preset temperature is reached. However, these use a sealed metal combustion chamber / heat exchanger. The larger the heater the larger the firebox / exchanger. You can have too much residual heat in the firebox metal; too much meaning the temperature in the cabin can continue to rise after the thermostat cuts off.
A friend ran into this problem when he installed an oversized propane furnace in a small cabin. It was a deal "too good to pass up". However, he got cooked. Trying to set the thermostat lower to compensate for the over shooting resulted in the interior temperature getting too cold before the heater would kick on again. Yes, there are thermostats that have adjustments for this kind of thing but that can be complicated to get into.
I agree with the thoughts that the 8K unit might be better. One nice thing about the Housewarmer brand is they can operate without the blower. Too big is sometimes just too big.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2014 06:40pm
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Thanks for all the responses! Appreciate it as always..
Glad to hear I am not the only one in this boat. The reason I got this stove is that my walls are 2x4 and I wanted a small stove with a large viewing glass... Couldn't find anything smaller with a normal price. The ones I found were terrible expensive...
Does anyone have experience hear with that 8k propane stove?
hueyjazz - I believe my stove is not to be sued with a damper.
SE Ohio - I could find that fan with thermostat. can you give a link?
creeky - you mind giving a link to your 8k propane build?
My walls have roxwool in them (2x4) and my ceiling has pink cra* for 2x6... Don't remember the r value. I also have a vapor barrier. As I am puting the last wood strips on my cabin I do feel a difference with heat retention... but keep in mind that I install three huge (72x36) windows in my tiny cabin. It is double glazed but still.. i lose a lot form them.
Don - I agree on the 8k. I tried a fan once and it didn't really work that well.. I used that battery operated ryobi fan. but I will give it a shot again...
BTW - should the fan blow cool air up or should it blow the hot air down?
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optimistic
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2014 07:20pm
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also...
Thoughts -
http://www.batterysavers.com/portbattfa.htm
looks interesting. I doubt the 72 hour run time though.
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optimistic
Member
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2014 07:23pm
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hhhhh
I just realized this is the o2 one SE wrote about
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2014 07:27pm
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you could try relining your stove with fire brick , this would make the fire box smaller and give it more mass to retain heat over night. might be worth a try
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2014 07:40pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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Move the warm air to the cool area. A fan blowing air may not actually move very much. It can help.
For actually moving cold/warm air to the opposite best results may be had with a ducted fan. A computer fan blowing air through a floor to ceiling tube Like this
Modern wood stoves are meant to be used w/o a pipe damper. Being an airtight design means the air flow is controlled at the inlet.
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creeky
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2014 08:00pm
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optimistic. i'm building my hay rack now and will post on it here once the insulation/windows etc are done. you can follow my progress on creektreat dot ca (hope that's okay. it's just pics). it gets the 8k unit.
i've posted a bunch of art and what not there too. so go to hay rack.
I've been using two larger 14k propane units from US stoves homcomfort. but it seems US stoves has bid a fond farewell to their warranty claims. they were made in argentina and had a good rep.
the 14 ks worked very well last winter. somewhere there's a pic of the heater outlet at -35. if you don't think you need to vent your propane heater look at the ice build up on the side of my "shizzer shack" (aka the washroom). I also used a unit in conjunction with a wood stove in my 12x20 "studio." Man. Not getting up at 3 a.m. priceless.
I won't go into the propane use, but very reasonable.
My insulation in the studio is 2x4 walls with roxul. but I paneled with 1.5" polyiso sheets and then covered. my studio is 12x20, 8ft ceilings. I only have r10 in the floor. ouch. also big french doors/windows to the outside. so I like the 14k unit.
the fan is best if it blows cold air up into the unit to increase the units efficiency. I think most of the propane wall heaters are in the mid/high 60s for efficiency without the blower and around 80 with.
due to the small mass of these heaters I don't think you'll have a problem with a larger unit. one with a modulating burner would be best, but ...
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old243
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2014 08:22pm
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We have a hearth and a wall behind and beside our woodstove. Made with bricks. Once you get the bricks warmed up they hold and give off heat for a long time. They act like a heat sink. Might be an idea. you could use. old243
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optimistic
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2014 09:36pm
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Thanks everyone! I forgot to mention that I have no insulation in my floors... Will be a pita to add any. It is 3/4 plywood and 3/4 oak on 2x6 joists 16 oc.
I'll check out the website Creeky! Thanks for sharing
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Truecabin
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2014 11:47pm
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Quoting: optimistic I forgot to mention that I have no insulation in my floors... Will be a pita to add any.
can you tip the cabin up on one side?
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skootamattaschmidty
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2014 11:56pm - Edited by: skootamattaschmidty
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As Don suggested, I recommend trying the heat sticks. We too have a loft and found that it was very hot in the loft but cooler on the main floor. I learned of the heat sticks from this forum and made my own. My main reason was that I closed in the back area of the cabin that used to be a screened in room. We found the heat from the woodstove did not make it to the back room and it was cold in the winter time. I wanted a way to draw some of the warm air to that room. I installed two heat sticks, the first near the front of the loft, running to the peak and down to the floor of our bathroom area. The second runs from the peak, down the floor of the back room. I also cut a hole approximately eight inches by twenty inches on the back wall, near the ceiling. A third heat stick is positioned a couple inches from the ceiling height in the back room down to the floor. I cannot offer any real empirical evidence as I have never made any actual measurements with a thermometer as far as difference goes. What I can say is that we definitely notice a difference in the warmth in the back room. The heat stick from the peak in the loft brings warmer air to the floor level in the back and the one to the ceiling in the back helps suck the heat trapped at the ceiling in the main area through the hole I cut and into that room. It is much warmer back there now. Further, it certainly does not get as hot in the loft and I seem to burn less wood as the main floor feels more comfortable. I used 4" computer fans that I placed in wooden boxes I made and then used 3" abs sewer pipe for the duct work. I installed switches in the boxes to turn the individual heat sticks off and on. If I hold my hand in front of the exhaust at floor level, the air feels slightly warmer than the ambient temperature of the air. I don't think it is a significant difference as the air cools as it is drawn down the length of the duct but the circulation of that warm air out of the loft definitely makes a difference. I am very happy with their performance and the computer fans use very little power and I can run all night without worrying about draining my battery. As an added bonus, they are very quiet and you can hardly hear them running when turned on.
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SubArcticGuy
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2014 12:14am
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A trick I learned from canvas tenting at 40 below is to stoke the fire with a balance of green wood at night and leave the damper open a bit so the fire can smolder. I used to pack it full of dry wood and close the damper but then in the milder of the night you wake up to a red-hot stove because the wood has turned to charcoal overnight and starts burning very hot and then burns out and you get cold. With the right balance of green wood it should smoulder all night. You do have to be careful:
Green wood means creosote which means chimney fires...you will have to clean the chimney more often.
This was using "hippie-killers". I have yet to try it with a true airtight stove...I finally get a real stove out to the cabin in a couple of months when the snowmobile trails open up again.
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OwenChristensen
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2014 09:01am
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The only reasons for your trouble would be poor insulation, too high of ceilings and a poor seal in the stove door. It's real important to control the burn with controlling air into the fire.
Owen
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hueyjazz
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2014 12:12pm
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Optimistic
That little knob under your door is your damper. It controls the amount of oxygen into your stove. Oxygen is required for combustion but you don't want to go too low or too high. The temp gauge install a flue is the best and easiest way to measure this burn.
I would agree that some of your problem might be related to insulation but having a loft much hotter than then the base floor is simple physics. Hot air rises. Putting a ceiling fan in helps push that back down and better yet, mixes air within the room.
I'm curious as I've been consider on of those Northern wall units too for those times I waiting for the wood stove to do the deed. Plus there's times where I don't need that much heat or we aren't going to be there that long. I hate to leave a fire running when I'm not there. Mostly Sunday mornings when we have to leave the slice of heaven and come back to the real world.
I would think you need at least a 100 lb tank to runs those which would be a bit of a PITA to get to my camp but possible. Any thought from those that have these?
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2014 02:28pm
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The BTU draw is not all that high. We run an 18K unit, derated to about 14K by the altitude orifice change. We run 40# cylinders with no issues even in winter. Items with larger demands are a problem; things like most of the rocket type of propane heaters and the larger on demand water heaters.
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creeky
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2014 02:58pm - Edited by: creeky
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I use 100s. They are a pain to handle. when full they are heavy. a two man job. or... have a tractor.
in the winter you can lay em on their side and pull or push. they slide real good. I imagine a block and tackle would whip em over the snow pretty quick.
I got a 40 for the winter for the stove. I wouldn't want it for the heaters just 'cause of the running to town for fills. I'm guessing 6 fills of 100s this year. that would be 15 40s.
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skootamattaschmidty
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2014 01:26am
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I don't have a propane heater but use propane for everything else. I have Two, one hundred pound tanks. I use a hand truck/ dolly to move the tanks around in the summer months. Works great and I can handle them myself.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2014 09:21am
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Interesting thing these heat sticks. I'll definitely look into those.
When I go down to add wood it feels much nicer and cooler below which is another indication that I need something to move around the air.
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skootamattaschmidty
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2014 02:40pm
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If you search heat sticks on this forum's search engine you will see a few different threads relating to the heat sticks. I really think they help mix the air.
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SE Ohio
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2014 04:56pm
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O2 fan with thermostat
http://www.batterysavers.com/portbattfa.htm
(Googled o2 fan thermostat)
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tex
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2015 01:54pm - Edited by: tex
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The problem with your setup up is:
1) You have a sleeping loft (poor design) everyone builds one, but they are impractical, always warm/hot winter or summer and are accessed by ladder that makes moving anything in/out difficult.
2) Woodstove is to large - you chose the cheap route when it came to the wood stove, and now, you have found out it is not practical and a waste of money.
3) Floor is not insulated- get it insulated, a weekend of work you could with someone (friend) that is experienced. Dirty job though. Or get more throw rugs!
To resolve:
a) Move from the loft to the main floor and store unused furnishings (in the main room) in the loft area and buy a put away sleeping bed for the main floor.
b) Remove the stove and get a proper one for the size of the area. Though the heat will rise to the loft. (Jotul) has a variety of small, efficient and controllable wood stoves.
c) Propane heaters (vented) are fine but make sure you want to hand/store and manage the propane tanks. (For the loft area: a heat buddy may work) but are not vented, so caution to leaving it on to long, and not when you sleep)
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AK Seabee
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# Posted: 31 Jan 2015 07:20pm
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Optimistic, I installed a ceiling fan at the peak. Its main purpose is to mix the air, even at -30 F it does the job. I also installed floor to ceiling walls in the two loft bedrooms. You can close the doors to regulate the temperature in the bedrooms. The cooler the better.
If your cabin is insulated well it will stay warm even if the fire goes out at three am. Maybe not the optimum temp but far warmer then the outhouse. The older I get the earlier I rise so I am up by six anyway to restoke the fire. Mostly for the benefit of those that can sleep a little longer.
We are completly of the grid with no option to connect. We are subsisting for now with a 2 kw Honda generator, an inverter, and a couple batteries. Fine for weekend use but since I would like to stay longer I have been pouring over the forum discussions on alternative power.
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