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fthurber
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# Posted: 20 Jun 2010 12:44pm
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I have had a ton of quality problems with the materials and tools I bought from the Big Box stores (such as Home Depot and Lowe's). So much so that I have vowed never to buy so much as a nail from these types of stores.
I buy all my wood from the local sawmill (a lot cheaper) and all my hardware and tools from local family-owned places. The last straw was when I was building a pottery studio for my wife and she talked me into buying some paned doors from Home Depot. The price was great and they looked like solid wood. But a few months later after a heavy rain they delaminated and the we realized that we had been duped; they were not solid wood but rather particle board with a veneer.
I remember another time when I was desperate for exernal dry-wall stye screw and my local hardware store was closed (it was Sunday) so I bought (at a high price) some stainless drywall screws form Home Depot. When I tried to drive them in I realized that they have not been tempered correctly and we as soft as butter; impossible to drive in. Obviously Home Depot had bought defect screws they hoped to sell as the real deal and I got suckered. I am finding that Lowes is not much better....
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fthurber
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# Posted: 20 Jun 2010 12:47pm
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Here are some pictures. The first is one of the Home Depot doors being sealed with a wood preservative and the second is the finished studio with the door mounted. This is on the north side so it gets hit by rain.
studio_interior.JPG
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outside.JPG
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fthurber
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# Posted: 20 Jun 2010 01:14pm - Edited by: fthurber
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I should note that part of the blame should be shouldered by us; these were supposed to interior doors but we put on wood preservative and figured that they would be OK since they were solid wood. But we were snookered by Home Depot; the doors are not solid; plastic on the inside with a veneer.
This pictures is actually on the side of the door and you can see the delamination.
I have also had bad luck with the tools I buy from Home Depot; Lowes; and even Sears. The tools I buy from the small family-owned shops last a LOT longer. I have heard (but know if this is true) that Home Depot approaches vendors such as Stanley and demands that they make cheaper versions of their tools so you think you are buying a good name but you are not. I don't know if this is true but in my experience the Big Box tools do not last.
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larry
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# Posted: 21 Jun 2010 07:56am
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i am not a fan of either of these stores but is sounds to me like you did not read the labels. there is a difference between a solid wood door and a solid, wood door. by your own admission you knew it was a interior door and you "thought" it would be alright if you sealed it...not. stainless hardware and screws are softer than carbon steel screws. next time you should use a coated exterior screw. like i said , i am not a fan of depot and always support small business but if you're gonna make a deal with the devil you must read the fine print and do your home work.
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avan
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# Posted: 21 Jun 2010 02:56pm
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What I can see is you buy inside use material, this is in interior door. glue are not made for the element like humidity form the rain snow, etc... the only way to use that product outside are when FULLY coated with epoxy.
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fthurber
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# Posted: 21 Jun 2010 08:21pm - Edited by: fthurber
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Yea without question we were trying to push the limits. If the door had been solid wood as they appeared to be then it would have worked. But this is not the first time I have been snookered by Home Depot; just about everything I have gotten there is junk. And as far as the drywall screws...I have gotten properly tempered stainless screws from the local hardware guys and they are as hard as flit and work beautifully. When I get a chance I post will some pix of some hi-tech self-tapping self-counter-sinking stainless screws I have be using from the out local hardware place (JT's lumber in Rhode Island).
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Mike
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# Posted: 23 Jul 2010 08:38am
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Your kidding yourself if you think that just because you buy from a local family-owned place your getting better quality hardware and tools. Most sell the same brands and quality as what you call "Big Box Stores" they just charge more for it.
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Gary O
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2010 10:32pm
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Rule of thumb; Read, talk it around.
To beat a dead horse, thick epoxy type weather proofing on an interior door used on the exterior may buy you a few years, but the initial money saved will surely end up misspent.
But damn! You built a really nice structure Squidlips!
Family owned stores do give some good personal service, and I am pro small guy, but they can't compete with Home Dopey price wise, and if you know exactly what you're after, the big store usually wins out, but your screw situation looks like maybe an exception........
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 3 Oct 2010 06:09pm
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When I built my cabin last summer, I found just the opposite to be true as far as lumber quality. But the economy was in the tank and the building industry was real slow. The load of lumber I initially purchased was from a lumber store (ma and pa type) and the lumber was mixed pine and spruce, little doug fir. Curved, split etc. I ended up still buying lots at the local Home Depot and all I could find was clear top quality straight as an arrow Douglas Fir and it was very low cost. I was told when building is booming, box stores do get the left overs, in my case, they where getting the good stuff as no one else way buying it up. I picked a great time to buy my lumber. As for tools, Home Depots "Husky" brand is good, as is Lowes "Kobalt", I can tel you as a professional auto tech for 30 years, I know quality tools. Kobalt is actually made by Snap-On for Lowes.
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SmlTxCabin
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# Posted: 3 Oct 2010 06:41pm
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I have had no issues with buying from Home Depot. The little stores close to my cabin NEVER have what I need when I need it. And the prices are generally outrageous. But occasionally I can find what I need.
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Gary O
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# Posted: 9 Oct 2010 01:50am
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Big box/Mom & Pop, all have pros and cons.
The simple economic fact is the little guy can never compete. I've seen a few that tried to hang on after a Home Depot moved into the area, but try to move inventory after their adds come out.
Some rural True Value stores carry all the weird hardware imaginable, and if I need something like an odd sized screw with a mating internal (thin/long) female cap nut for my hand saw handle, that's where I go, and the little guy is oftentimes the franchise owner.
Lowes is too high end for me, and their wood materials are hideous in my area, so it's Home Dopey most trips.
Didn't know the Kobalt/Snap-On connection. Thanks t-tech.
Craftsman quality has declined so, but Sears still keeps the prices ridiculously high.
Last purch at Sears a few years ago was a $100 'Craftsman' bench top drill press. The motor lasted a few short weeks. The brushes were unreplaceable, so I took it back. Sears would replace it for another $100 (WTF??!!).....
Bought another one exactly like it (an exact clone) at Harbor Tool for $35. Probably bushings, not bearings, but for $35........still using it, but transfered the Craftsman handles.
Happy shopping gents.
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fthurber
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# Posted: 5 Nov 2010 11:30pm - Edited by: fthurber
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Quoting: Mike Your kidding yourself if you think that just because you buy from a local family-owned place your getting better quality hardware and tools. Most sell the same brands and quality as what you call "Big Box Stores" they just charge more for it.
Not in my experience. Maybe you can do better; good luck. It seems to me that the big box stores buy defective merchandise and re-sell it to suckers like myself.
Everything I have bought from Home Depot has broken. Total trash. I have a suspicion that Lowes and Home Depot approach the manufactures and get them to put their labels on ultra-cheap trash or just buy the label and put it on some garbage.
I am really mad at Lowes right now for the sonatubes they sold me. My son and I started a little cabin in the woods and went all the trouble of carting the cement and water and toube out there. We poured the cement and it looked good but next morning the tubes had collapsed. They were not resistant to damp. Unbelievable. Never again am I buying from Lowes (or Home Depot). In my opionion they SUCK!
The reason the little guy is going out of business is that they are not opened on the weekends and the public believes the garbage about lower prices. Lower prices for lower quality. And what good does a lower price do you if you have to re-buy the crap again.
Compare a crapo chainsaw to on you buy at Home Depot to a quality saw from your local Stihl store. Or weed wacker.
I just inherited my father-in-laws wheelbarrow. The thing is awesome with head steel bowl and thick oak handles. It has outlasted the crap wheelbarrow I got from Home Depot with the pine handles and the highly rustable fasteners.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2010 12:01am - Edited by: MtnDon
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If the product is a national well known brand, and if it is being sold as new, not refurbished or used, it is the same item wherever it came from. Do you really believe a name brand company, selling its products via many vendors, is going to take a chance on smearing their own name by selling second rate items through some discount sales channel? They might give some very good deals, but not shoddy merchandise. As a business model that would be suicide as the defective items will not reflect on the store that sold it as much as it will reflect badly on the manufacturer, the name on the product.
On the other hand if you buy an off brand name, you have no guarantees at all. You may as well buy everything from Harbor Freight, and know up front you have cheap grade equipment.
As for lumber, it depends. Some smaller yards do seem to have great quality lumber, but some do not store all their lumber under cover. The big box stores around me all do. That can make a big difference. Time the lumber sits in inventory also makes a difference; wood likes to change moisture content and may pick up moisture or dry out in storage. A big box sometimes has an edge on speed of inventory turnover. Also sometimes people expect too much from a stick of #2 dimensional lumber. The gradin standards everyone uses permit wane, even though most owner builders would rather not have it.
Did the tubes appear new, not discolored, not wrinkled? A good tube has a clear hollow sound when thumped if in good shape. Again I've seen some tubes stored improperly, outside where they could get rained on. Not good. IMO, if the tubes had collapsed by morning there is a good chance that the mix you used was too wet. The number one error folks who mix their own concrete make is a mix with too much water, especially when hand mixing in a wheelbarrow or tray. #2 is they don't get the gravel, sand, cement ratio right.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2010 01:24am - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: SquidLips Compare a crapo chainsaw ... you buy at Home Depot to a quality saw from your local Stihl store.
Compare crapo to quality?
What's the point?
And that has nothing to do with who the vendor is.
Crapo is crapo and quality is Stihl or Husqvarna.
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Gary O
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2010 10:10am
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Ok, permit me to chime in (need a bar stool and a steady stream of beer about now).
Quality:
Stihl vs crapo...duh.
However, there are various grades of items bearing the same name brand.
Craftsman (sudden urge to gargle and spit) has various grades of everything they make. You can buy a combo wrench with their name on it in about three or maybe four different quality grades. Wasn't that way, back in the '70s.
Same goes for lots of name brand stuff, these days. The exceptions are companys like Stihl (god bless them).
Big Box vs Little guy:
I'm sayin' it depends on how astute the little guy in your area is, and I'm very proud of those that survive and thrive.
However, tool for tool they can't compete.
But personal service, paying attention to what their customer is saying, gives them a bit of an edge, be it ever so slim.
Both places give you opportunity to inspect what you are buying.
Cheap, low Grade Outlet Stores:
You have to know what you're buying. Throw away tools fill the shelves. Not naming names, but a chain of stores (name rhymes with Barber Weight Stool) is sweeping the land. Careful research is needed before you step in that door. Buyer beware.
Bought an air nailer there. Not unhappy with it, but rented a Ridgid nailer when mine was left at the cabin. Oh-h-h-h-h-oh. Worlds of difference.
As for me, I don't usually drink beer, but when I do, I insist on Dos Equis.......
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dabones
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# Posted: 6 Nov 2010 04:59pm
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***The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.. ***
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Sometimes, cheap stuff is ok, for the occasional use.. but for something you plan on heavily using, you need quality stuff..
I am a Licenced Mechanic, and most of my tools would be name brand SnapOn, Mac, Matco, IR, etc.. but I do have some cheap junk that I use maybe a couple times a year, so I just be carefull and get through those jobs..
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fthurber
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2010 08:34am - Edited by: fthurber
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Quoting: MtnDon If the product is a national well known brand, and if it is being sold as new, not refurbished or used, it is the same item wherever it came from. Do you really believe a name brand company, selling its products via many vendors, is going to take a chance on smearing their own name by selling second rate items through some discount sales channel?
Yes. Absolutely; greed is hard to resist. There is always some executive that will opt for a bigger bonus this year and to hell with the brand. Someone told me that Home Depot had approached the name brands and demanded cheaper versions with their names on it. I have no idea if this is true but my personal experience bears this out at least at my local store. Your results may vary but everything I have bought from them broke. I even bought some carpenter pencils from them that turned out to be worthless because the lead moved in the wood.
After getting one piece of crap after another I vowed never again but found myself desperate on a weekend and bought some stainless deck screws from them thinking that they could not possibly mess that up. Wrong. They had not been tempered properly and were so soft that I could not screw them in. It is as if they buy defective product and resell them. Maybe it is just my local store or maybe I am rough on tools but personally I have had a really really bad time.
The sonatubes is the latest outage and I am really PO'd this time because my son and I wasted a weekend. I got them from Lowe's. Never again will I buy from them. We got some good sonatubes from the local family owned store (Dartmouth Builder's Supply) and they were great. No turning to mush. I will post pictures.
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Gary O
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2010 09:40am
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Quoting: SquidLips I even bought some carpenter pencils from them that turned out to be worthless
Yeah, I experienced that too. Very frustrating when on the job site 60 mi from a store...........
Never had a problem with their deckmate screws though, of which it's best to use their drivers, never a skip, or material failure.
Again, makers of brand items seem to try to snag the bigger market with some inferior quality product, but it's mostly up to the buyer, and astute shopping.............model number comparisons, etc....
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nathanprincipe
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2010 10:40pm
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not to stir the fire but, Ive always been happy with Home Depot and Lowes, I can recall an instance that I bought something defective or different than advertised
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nathanprincipe
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# Posted: 11 Nov 2010 10:40pm
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meant to say "cant recall"
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fthurber
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# Posted: 23 Nov 2010 06:58pm
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I just picked up a STIHL catalog and on the back cover is a full-page ad saying:
"Why is the world's number one selling brand of chain saw NOT sold at Lowe's or The Home Depot?"
Then it goes on to describe how the 8000 independent STIHL dealers offer better advice and service than you could get at the big box stores. Can't argue with that.
I was dismayed to see that Husqvarna sold their soul to the big box stores; I will never buy one of those now.
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Gary O
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# Posted: 23 Nov 2010 09:10pm
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Quoting: SquidLips I was dismayed to see that Husqvarna sold their soul to the big box stores; I will never buy one of those now.
Carefull, SL, before long you'll be backed into a corner.
Husqvarna is tops, and they're just trying to get a piece of the Stihl market.
But I know exactly what you're saying.
In the 70s I worked for an equipement rental outfit.
We swapped out Briggs and Stratton engines in all our small equipment until the failure rate became too regular. Turned out they were using inferior materials in their blocks and bore sleeves. We switched to Honda. Broke my heart.
Point being, ya gotta keep yer ear to the ground when shopping. Things change, usually for the worse, in the name of getting the market share. Let's hope Husqvarna isn't going that[b][/b] direction.
Oregon and Alaskan loggers use Stihl or Husqvarna. It's for a reason. Equipment failure in the woods is expensive.
I have a Homelite Super XL 20" of which I bought in 76, but I'm not in the profession of tree falling.
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fthurber
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# Posted: 25 Nov 2010 09:33am
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It is possible that Husky's have the same quality but I will never buy one general principles now. Why bother when I am assured of quality if I buy a Stihl AND I can get excellent service and advice. To heck with Husky.
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Gary O
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# Posted: 25 Nov 2010 10:39am
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Quoting: SquidLips Why bother when I am assured of quality if I buy a Stihl
Cheers to that!
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 25 Nov 2010 10:10pm
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Does Target qualify as a Big Box? I think so.
I bought a trashcan from them about three years ago. Nice stainless steel unit with a step on pedal that pops the butterfly lids open. Last week we had an accident, tripped and broke the lid. Bummer. Looking on the web for new ones I found the makers website. I filled in the customer service request form. Note, I have no receipt, I am not sure when I bought it other than a wild guess, I never registered the purchase back then. I did that this morning.
After dinner my inbox had a response. They are sending replacement parts at no charge. Delivery expected in 7 - 10 days.
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fasenuff
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# Posted: 26 Nov 2010 10:08am
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Let's face it, if you buy the wrong materials for a job(interior door for exterior application, the wrong screws) or you don't use it properly by not following manufacturer suggestions(not supporting the sonotube which you admtted you did the second time) it will not matter if you buy from mom and pop or big box. It pays to research, research and research. Check to see what others have used and always read the label. Ask how others tackeled the same type job. By doing this you can learn from their mistakes and not the new ones you will make.
If the door is marked interior it is for a reason and you can bet it probably won't work exterior. You would think that sealing an interior door would help it work for exterior use but just the opposite. By sealing it you force it to retain any condensation created by differences of temp inside and outside. This will cause most glues designed for interior use to let go.
You would think a metal screw would be strong enough to screw into wood but not always. Screws are made many ways for many applications. You gotta know what you need and it helps to know what you are doing and to read the box.
You would think an 8" sonotube would stand up on its own if level to start but a small air gap or bubble in the concrete will cause water to form and even the best tube if scratched at that point will soften allowing the tube to sag, bend, fold, or blow out. The manufacturer of the "best" tubes out there says bracing and a form release agent is needed.
There are some cheap products out there. There are also some products that are over priced for what you get. But you cannot compare apples to oranges and expect to see a fair comparison. If you compare Stihl to "cheapo" its apples to oranges. If you use the wrong door in the wrong place it's aples to oranges. If you use a "cheaper" sonotube with no bracing the first time and then use a "better" sonotube the second time with bracing it's apples to oranges'
Harbor Freight is well known for the "cheap" china made tools they sell. But a little research will also tell you some of the "junk" they sell is a bargin if used and cared for in a reasonable manner. I have one of the generators they sell and am very happy with it. But if I try to run more on it than it is designed for and it burns out it is MY fault for not using it properly not Harbor Freight's.
Some stores grow buy actively selling the cheap and disposable products. Eveyone knows it and which stores they are. Harbor Freight is one. Lowes is not. They grew the chain they have by offering a decent product at a competive price. But they do get a "lower" quality product from time to time. When you see an add with the words "Special Purchase" and the price is low look it over. There may be a reason for the low price. But that is anywhere. You used to see that a lot at the time Sears started cheapening the craftsman line.
Moral of the story? Know what you are buying and how and where to use it. Sometimes that few dollars you save will actually be money saved and sometimes it will be part of the extra spent making up for the savings. And if you use the wrong thing or use it the wrong way it is on you and not the store. Chances are if you ask the clerks they can tell you if that is the right tool or product for the job and the best way to use it.
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fthurber
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# Posted: 26 Dec 2010 02:27pm
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Why bother? Just buy from a local family-owned building supply store and be assured of quality ...
And good service. I am sick of pimply-faced minimum wage teenagers at the Big Box stores who don't know (or care) a thing about construction. When I go to the local family-owned place I get top-notch service and get expert advice. And my money goes to local families instead of China and corporate tycoons (didn't the Home Depot owner buy an NFL team?).
I suspect Big Box stores have teams of accountants and financial guys back in corporate headquarters whose full time job is to cut costs. They way they do that is buying the cheapest possible materials and hire the cheapest labor. To heck with them. They are all about short-term profit and to heck with the brand; now the chickens are coming home to roost.
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fasenuff
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# Posted: 27 Dec 2010 03:48am
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Ya but SL if you buy that same interior door from mom and pop and use it in an exterior application it will still fail.
Lowes and Home Depot have the vendors come in to educate the employees on many of the products. Not mom and pop. And go to mom and pops place and look around. You will still see young high school kids working there beside those old tired guys who are so bored with being in the same place they just do not care anymore.
Let's face it. Yes sometimes you can get more customer service and mom and pops. Sometimes. But sometimes you find a better selection at big box. Both places have pros and cons. In the end it is the buyer who decides what to buy. And it is on them to know what they are buying before it goes out the door. Read the package and do a little research. That will tell you if you are really saving money on that door or just making a down payment on an education.
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fthurber
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# Posted: 27 Dec 2010 07:39am
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Quoting: fasenuff Ya but SL if you buy that same interior door from mom and pop and use it in an exterior application it will still fail. Lowes and Home Depot have the vendors come in to educate the employees on many of the products. Not mom and pop. And go to mom and pops place and look around. You will still see young high school kids working there beside those old tired guys who are so bored with being in the same place they just do not care anymore. Let's face it. Yes sometimes you can get more customer service and mom and pops. Sometimes. But sometimes you find a better selection at big box. Both places have pros and cons. In the end it is the buyer who decides what to buy. And it is on them to know what they are buying before it goes out the door. Read the package and do a little research. That will tell you if you are really saving money on that door or just making a down payment on an education.
Do you work for Lowes?
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 27 Dec 2010 09:19am
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Quoting: SquidLips Why bother? Just buy from a local family-owned building supply store and be assured of quality ... And good service. I am sick of pimply-faced minimum wage teenagers at the Big Box stores who don't know (or care) a thing about construction.
I have never seen a young pimply faced kid at Home Depot. Its always been older gents and gals and very knowledgable in their field.
I bought my entire lumber pak from a mom and pops store, then picked up everything else that was missing (or added to the project) and the lumber from the mom and pops was horrible compared to Home Depot. My lumber pak consisted of pine and fir, and was all warped. Looks like it was setting int he yard outside for a long time. All the extra lumber I got from Home Depot, all douglas fir and near clear, no knots. Straight as an arrow.
I dont have an issue with mom and pop operation, but I dont agree Home Depot and Lowes is garbage.
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