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neb
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2014 06:51pm - Edited by: neb
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I'm in the processes of building a shed and I want to burry some poles for the print of the building. If I have 4 foot side walls then A frame the roof with 8 foot 4x4's will this work. It will be 12 feet long and 10 feet wide. A dirt floor I need something to keep a few things out of the weather and to do some carving etc. Tell what you think and give me your two cents. Here is a picture of me sledding a pole up the canyon. LOL Better then carrying them Thanks
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2014 07:38pm
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Treat those cut off ends before burying them. Looks like work. Can an internal combustion engine make the job easier????
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neb
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2014 07:53pm - Edited by: neb
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They will be treated that won't be a problem. In places a machine would work but not where I have to get to. It is actually not that hard of pull with the sled. I can't pull one with out it. LOL
Do you see any issues me building like I descripted?
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Just
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2014 09:08pm
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I wonder were Neb found used utility poles ? i have two under my old trailer very durable !
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Don_P
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2014 09:52pm
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An A frame forms a triangle, a stable shape. What you are proposing is a 5 sided shape. Unrestrained, the rafters will push outwards on the posts. Either a ridgebeam or rafter ties would work. Setting angled posts as the rafters in the ground to form the A frame without sidewalls is another way.
Rot requires moisture, temperature, food and oxygen. We usually poison the food but denying the fungi any of those stops it. At the bottom of a post hole there is little oxygen. Posts generally rot off around ground level. In logyards they used to pond the timbers, now you'll often see sprinklers set up on the piles, these are both ways of denying decay fungi oxygen.
A modified hand truck might make for easier hauling depending on terrain.
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neb
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2014 10:26pm - Edited by: neb
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Here is rough sketch of what I will be going. It will have 4 ft side walls and two longer poles to make the door way. I need a 5 ft opening and draws out fine with 4 ft side walls then 8 ft 4x4's going to a ridge beam for the rafters. The question is how would you fasten the rafters to 4 ft wall? I can and most likely will box the top of the 4 ft wall and fasten to it. I will use hurricane strapping when I have a plan how to fasten to wall. Any suggestions are welcome. I built a pole barn 25 years ago with poles and it has no rot and is a very strong building to this day. I will treat and take care of the butts that is the least of my concern. Poles can be replaced if rot ever becomes an issue. These poles are fully treated and Have never been in the ground, I will take every precaution before I direct bury them.
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neb
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2014 10:38pm
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Just
What you been up too? Been cutting any grain yet?
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Don_P
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2014 06:38am
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How many posts, how is the wall built?
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2014 07:43am
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You are going to need at least a double 2 x 10 for a ridge beam Neb,, others know better but you will need a ridge beam !!
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neb
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2014 07:51am
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There will 4 posts in 12 feet on side walls. The back wall there will be 3 in 10 feet.
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Just
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2014 08:37am
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I agree it will be strong, but if you want it to be strait for ever, you need a ridge beam of some sort .
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neb
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2014 08:02pm
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Just
Yes I will have a ridge beam and planned on that. My plan is to nail a 4x4 to the top of the 4 buried poles and attach the rafters to it with pole barn nails. I will then run 2x4's across rafters and fasten tin to that. I just don't want to birds eye on wall sill if I don't have to. The cutting will need to be done on site and with no power I just didn't want all that cutting. If I spike those rafters into the plate do you feel this would be fine. I will hurricane strap each rafter.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2014 09:21pm - Edited by: Don_P
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Some more thoughts.
Checking the section modulus, roughly the bending strength, and moment of inertia, roughly the stiffness... a 2x6 should be stronger and stiffer than a 4x4. The old adage "deeper is cheaper". I'm not saying that is the rafter to use yet, just an observation. To size the rafters, I'm assuming 4 pairs spaced 4' oc, over the posts, and the size of the ridgebeam, the next piece of the puzzle we need to know is the snow load in pounds per square foot.
Something along the lines of a treated 2x10 or 2x12 as a ground level skirt around the outside perimeter of the posts and a 2x6 around the top of the 4' wall and up the gables would give something to attach the wall sheathing to as well as keeping the siding up off the ground a good amount. It would also give something to fill gravel inside against if you want a cleaner and drier floor than dirt.
With 2x rafters I would chainsaw cut a 1-1/2" slot in the middle of the center posts and insert the rafters into the slots, pinning them in place with long pole barn nails thru the post and rafters. Bevel the tops of the posts flush to the tops of the rafters. 2x purlins on top of the rafters with tarpaper on top and spaced to carry the metal roofing.
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neb
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2014 09:42pm - Edited by: neb
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Don_P
Thanks for the advise. Some of the things you talked about I will be doing. As far as the 4x6 not 4x4 is that they are free and in very nice shape. They are 12 feet long so I was going to make them work. I am still trying to decide on how I want to build this structure. I do not want to do a lot of cutting because everything I do will mostly be done with a chain saw. What is your thought when I get my posts planted if I build walls on top of the posts. I would have one side 10 feet total high and 8 feet on the lower side. I need a 5 foot door on one of the side thou. I need to make it as easy of construction as possible but still a very sound building. It is just where this building will be located. Thanks for everyone's help.
PSF is 30#
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Don_P
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# Posted: 12 Aug 2014 06:49am
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You've lost me, I thought the peak of the gable was around 10', the lower side was around 4' and the side walls were around 4' tall?
Actually a 2x6 is stronger and stiffer than a 4x4, but a 4x4 does check at that load on 4' centers. A double 2x10 also works for the ridgebeam. Over the 5' door a double 2x6 header with a post to support the ridgebeam works.
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ThomD
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2014 01:41am
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With the outline I understand you to suggest you can run 2x10s from the corners with no other post. You will need whatever posts you need to define the corners of the space, but that is it. You can get away with 4x4s for the corner posts. Would save a lot of effort (if not for you at least others who may consult this thread).
Why do you have to cut the birdmouths up there, why not gang cut them at the power outlet. If your shape is oddball, requiring custom fitting of the rafters, you don't have to do that in the birdmouths, it could be cut at the plates, or at the peak. Or maybe you will only need to make a small adjusting cut.
Free is good but 4x4s have a lot of problems. The 2x6 mentioned will be 4 times stiffer, and they are normally more dimensional, with the pith not being at the wandering center of a 4x4, but possibly not even in the 2x at all, or at a point where the board is more or less quartered. 4x4s often have very poor dimensional stability, so be sure they are actually capable of being coplanar. Also they are often of very poor wood, and not rated for the use you have in mind, which can be a code issue, or just a common sense one. On the other hand, if they are great pieces, it would be a nice thing to use if it meets your structural needs.
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neb
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2014 10:00pm - Edited by: neb
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I thought I would respond to the thread and show what I have so far. I got some used tin today so will get started to tin the roof. It is a strong frame and will last a long time. I do have two large windows that go in on the sides so I do have some framing to do yet.
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Scott G
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2014 07:39am
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Looking good.
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