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RichInTheUSA
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2014 09:51pm
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Need some advice...
My cabin's crawl space is starting to grow mold. Today I went into the crawl space and noticed that all the pipes coming from the well have condensation all over them. Is this normal when the well water is very cold, and it's hot outside?
I also noticed that the concrete is wet, just under the well valves... I could not tell if there was an explicit leak... or if the condensation is just dripping off the pipes. In the case where the pipes run vertically, the condensation seems to run down the pipes and on to the floor.
Btw, I am in Virginia where it's very hot and humid.
Any thoughts?
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RichInTheUSA
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2014 10:01pm
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Hmm.. trying to upload pics, but not working.
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RichInTheUSA
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2014 10:01pm
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2 more.
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RichInTheUSA
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2014 10:02pm - Edited by: RichInTheUSA
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Sorry folks... it seems that the uploading of the files seems to take up to 5 minutes to show up.
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RichInTheUSA
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2014 10:03pm
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getting an error "you can't perform that action" when trying to upload photos.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 13 Jul 2014 11:20pm
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Most likely you have condensation due to high humidity and cold pipes.
Is the crawlspace floor concrete all over? Was a heavy plastic sheet placed on the ground before concrete was placed?
What sort of ventilation does the crawl space have?
Any insulated crawl space walls or floor above?
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RichInTheUSA
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# Posted: 14 Jul 2014 06:12am
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Hi MtnDon. The crawlspace has about 25% of the floor in concrete and the rest in dirt/exposed bedrock.
The concrete area has a hot water heater, well water tank, water softener, and a refrigerator on it.
Re ventilation: There are 4 vents in each of the 4 corners, each about 12"x6". Unfortunately, they were closed and blocked with styrofoam until yesterday. I opened up the vents, and also ran a oscillating fan down there all day yesterday. *Now* I know that you're supposed to open the vents in the spring.
Re:Insulation: There is no insulation on the crawspace walls, nor on the crawlspace ceiling.
Re plastic: I just put that 6 mil plastic down over a portion of the dirt/bedrock yesterday. I had read on the internet that you should duct tape the plastic 1 to 2 feet up the foundation walls. However, duct tape does not stick well to cinder block.
I had been planning to put down plastic anyhow (per recommendation by a home inspector), since a portion of the exposed dirt/bedrock has been damp since I bought the place this past March.
I didn't finish putting down plastic for thre reasons. 1) I wanted to ask advice on this forum. 2) Im considering calling a mold remediation company and didn't want to create more work for them. 3) Im considering calling a plumber in case there is a leak in one of the pipes going to the well regulator.
Thanks for any advice!! Rich
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 14 Jul 2014 07:39am
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While possibly a bit extreme, I'm leaning that this is normal condensation.
At my home in Maryland, I also get condensation on my well pipe in the summer. I don't get the amount that you seem to but my basement, although all unfinished cinder block and concrete, is somewhat climate-controlled. So the temperature and humidity very likely does not get as high as I'm sure yours does- even though my humidity does run high (if I don't run a dehumidifier all summer, cardboard and such will start to grow mold).
The big question is how to address it. I'm sure others (MtnDon) know more about this than I do, but I'm thinking that since you have no option for climate control (as evidenced by the open-air vents) and can't really change the temperature of your ground water, you are going to be a slave to the mid-Atlantic humidity. I would however consider wrapping the pipes with pipe insulation. Reducing the amount cool surface area on each pipe that is exposed to the hot and humid air should significantly reduce the condensation.
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razmichael
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# Posted: 14 Jul 2014 08:46am
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Quoting: PA_Bound I'm leaning that this is normal condensation.
I will lean in the same direction. In my house the well pipe and the pressure tank (even the remaining cold water pipes) can drip a lot on humid days, despite having a humidifier going. These are in an unfinished basement section but properly sealed for moisture. I used to keep a plastic pan under the main pipe to tank assembly to catch and drain heavy condensation. Now I have insulated the cold water pipes with the foam pipe stuff as well as insulated the pressure tank. If you can keep the hot humid air from contacting the cold pipes that may be enough to solve the issue.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 14 Jul 2014 09:50pm - Edited by: Don_P
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It is condensation. We are in a period of high dew points right now and it is easy at those times for a surface such as those in cool crawlspaces to be cooler than the dew point. When you bring in hot humid air into a cool space the relative humidity climbs higher as the air cools and the dew point rises. You can see the condensation on an impervious surface such as a pipe. What is possibly more concerning is whether the wood is above or below dew point. Wood is hygroscopic, it absorbs water readily so you don't neccessarily see it sweat but its' moisture content may be rising into the decay zone. If you have access to a moisture meter, either personally, or a cabinetmaker, or home inspector, it might be worth checking. If its getting into the 20%'s or above you're in trouble.
There are a few ways to alter the equation. Seal the floor, caulks or mastics stick to plastic and concrete. Heat the space, raising surfaces above dewpoint and lowering the RH and dewpoint. Dehumidify the space, again this warms surfaces and the air, lowering the RH while lowering the dewpoint.
A 10% clorox solution will take care of light mold and most are non toxic. Not to belittle it because it can be serious but we evolved alongside one another for millenia before it became the latest scary thing.
This article does a good job of explaining crawlspaces and condensation.
http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-009-new-light-in-crawlspaces
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RichInTheUSA
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# Posted: 15 Jul 2014 07:09am
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Thank you all so much for the information. This has been really helpful. Btw, I did spray the rafters, walls, and bedrock with 10% clorox solution. Then went over the area with an old broom. I didn't spray everywhere, but did spraywhere the white and black mold has been growing.
To summarize, here are the remedies I'll consider:
* pipe insulation
* insulate the pressure tank
* plastic pan under the tank assembly
* dehumidifier with tube to the outside
* 6 mil plastic on dirt/bedrock (attach to walls with caulk or mastic
* Space heater to raise DP (already bought one of these for the crawlspace, but was only planning to install it for the winter to keep pipes from freezing).
* Check the wood moisture content to see if above 20%.
I'm having a general contractor (who has mold remediation experience) come out to assess the situation today.
Will mention these remedies above, and I'll let you know what he suggests, and what steps I'll take.
Thanks again, Rich
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RichInTheUSA
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# Posted: 18 Jul 2014 07:40am
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Ok, the general contractor came out and assessed the situation. By the way, there was no condensation all over the pipes when he was there. It must have just been an unusually hot and humid day when I saw this.
Here is his recommendation:
* clean out the gutters, as they are clogged and water is too close to the foundation. (easy fix)
* spray treatment on interior/exterior concrete walls, on crawlspace concrete floor, sill plate, and exposed sub-floor.
* treat heavy stained areas with bleach, vinegar, ammonia as necessary
* apply 6 mil plastic to dirt floor of crawlspace.
Monitor... then use additional remedies if necessary (previous ones suggested in the post).
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Don_P
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# Posted: 18 Jul 2014 09:38pm - Edited by: Don_P
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Conditions have changed rather dramatically on the weather front over the past few days... Venting would work well on those cooler dry days, the air was approaching crawlspace temps and the humidity was low prior to this rain. I'm actually running the woodstove tonite. I try to during the summer whenever we have a cold snap to help dry things out.
On the monitor front, it would be a good idea to get a digital thermometer/hygrometer and stick it down there. we've got a small battery powered one that cost ~$20 and has been in service for about a decade. It has a remote outdoor thermometer and hi/lo memory on all functions. You can tape the remote to a joist to get wood temp, the unit's thermometer will give air temp and the hygrometer will give relative humidity. Getting fancier do a search for humidity data loggers. These can come as temp/humidity data loggers that will sample at whatever interval you choose, record the individual sample results and download to your pc. You can use the info from either method a couple of ways. The temps and RH's compared to a psychrometric table or online calc will give dew point. The air temp and rh compared to an equilibrium moisture content table will give the moisture content the wood is trying to equalize at under those conditions. If the emc numbers are getting into the trouble zone you can try to modify the conditions to try to create a better drying environment.
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rayyy
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# Posted: 19 Jul 2014 08:03am
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It's "for sure" condensation.insulating the pipes and all metal components will help stop it.It happens when ever warm air can get to the cold water pipes.Insulation will prevent this from happening.
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RichInTheUSA
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# Posted: 10 Sep 2014 05:41am
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I got the pipes insulated, and I put a small dehumidifier in the basement/cellar... This seems to solved the problem.
Question: in order to run the dehumidifier efficiently, should I close up the vents that are in the 4 corners of the foundation walls?
This seems logical, since I'd just be pulling outside air into the space.
Advice?
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Mainiac
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# Posted: 10 Sep 2014 07:50pm
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Leave the vents open in warm weather.The plastic will do alot.Its amazing how 6 mil plastic reduces dampness in a cellar -crawl space,It is speced according to code,A vapor barrier,On humid days the pipes sweat,Its no big deal.
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 13 Sep 2014 06:03pm
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I'm not so sure about that Maniac. In the mid-Atlantic area, while some of the humidity is in the ground, most comes from the air itself. In the summer around here humidity can hit 80-90% regularly, and hot (this morning was 98%, but it's dropping off as the day goes on). If Rich is running a dehumidifier, but the air is being replaced as fast as the dehumidifier works, I think he should maybe seal those vents off- at least in the summer.
Other thoughts, anyone?
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RichInTheUSA
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# Posted: 14 Sep 2014 08:02am
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Thank you both... This is the dilemma, to close the vents or not with the dehumidifier running.
I'll be going to the cabin later today, and will check on the humidity and the mold.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 15 Sep 2014 08:26pm
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I'd appreciate it if you dehumidify the state but if you can get a handle on the RH underfloor with the vents closed it would be better. Do read the link in my first post above.
A friend is currently replacing the joists and girders in a house that was built in the mid 90's. Condensation, or sweating can be a big deal under the right circumstances. Venting with humid air caused condensation on the framing underfloor and rotted everything below the insulation.
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papawawesome
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# Posted: 18 Sep 2014 05:47pm
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Bleach will actually encourage mold growth. The bleach kills it on the surface, but then the water feeds the residue in the pores. Especially on porous surfaces. You want an actual mold killer, and then you want to encapsulate with a good sealer, or a mold killing primer like Zinsser.
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