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MO Cabin
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# Posted: 2 Jun 2014 05:59pm
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I am getting ready to add a 12 volt rv water pump to my cabin. Until I get my gutters setup for rainwater collection I am bringing down 55 gallon drums filled with water. My plan is to setup 2 whole house filters after the water pump with 20 and 1 micoron filters and then a small pressure tank, then have the lines enter the house. For the time being the water will flow to the sink only, but eventually it will run to a on demand water heater, shower, and toilet. My question is what type of plumbing should I use. I have read alot about pex but I already closed in the walls and will not be able to keep the sunlight out to keep the lines from deteriorating. I am leaning towards running pvc under the cabin then have the water lines pop up from under the cabin where ever I need them. Any suggestions?
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 2 Jun 2014 06:24pm
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PVC is not code for hot water use. CPVC is for hot or cold and uses different glue and fittings.
Copper would be the other choice.
Or use Pex and box it in a chase along the wall / floor where it is not sheltered from direct UV light.
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bobrok
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# Posted: 2 Jun 2014 08:22pm
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FYIW I ran my pex high up on the interior walls where it meets the ceiling. In case we want to run water during the freezing season I figured this was better than under the floor. I used neutral color to blend in rather than red/blue pex. Of course we aren't exposed to sunlight up high.
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Clay N Feathers
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# Posted: 3 Jun 2014 12:36am
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What stae is your cabin? Do you have freezing temperatures.
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MO Cabin
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# Posted: 4 Jun 2014 12:54am
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I am in missouri and it gets pretty cold. This winter we saw -20 several times. That is abnormally low but temps drop below freezing often over the winter
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hueyjazz
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# Posted: 4 Jun 2014 11:55am
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PEX is the way to go. Hardly any new construction uses copper anymore. It's too expensive. Pex also can freeze without too much issue.
The pipe will expand and relieve pressure without rupturing. I would always drain the lines if you plan to let the cabin freeze and design low points into the system with valves.
You'll have to drain your preesure tank too. If you are worried about sunlight you can use the foam insulation over the Pex. I'm pretty sure they make a pex for burial that also has a covering on it.
Your other issue will be the drain traps as these will hold water. they make rubber P traps. I'm in the process of plumbing my cabin too. I use it in the winter but let it freeze when I'm not there during the week. I plan to use a lot of RV fixture such as the toilet since those don't have a holding tank.
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MO Cabin
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# Posted: 4 Jun 2014 07:31pm
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I have ben leaning towards pex. What do you plan to use as a hot water heater.
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hueyjazz
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# Posted: 4 Jun 2014 08:40pm
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The ecotemps work great. I built mine onto a board attached to a two wheel dolly. The pump and filters are also on this board and the LP gas sit on the base. It hooks to the main water lines via braided hose that has a Pex fitting on one end and a hose collar on the other. This hooks to boiler valves. I pull water from 55 gallon food grade plastic drums.
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MO Cabin
Member
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# Posted: 4 Jun 2014 09:20pm - Edited by: MO Cabin
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You dont happen to have any pictures, do you?
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hueyjazz
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# Posted: 9 Jun 2014 12:31pm
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MO Cabin
Sorry my replay took so long been behind at work. I'm just bringing my set up back to my cabin as I remove it for winter and put it in storage. I use a Flojet pump as these don't need a accumalator and they work pretty good as a on demand pump everytime a tap is open. The box on the upper right corner of the board is my 110 volt AC to 12 volt DC transformer. I can run this setup off a battery should I choose but I'm quite fortunate to have 110 volt power considering how far my cabin is in the woods. The hot water heater is a demand Ecotemp L10. These work great. The pump has a Tee connection before the hot water tank so I have a cold supply.
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MO Cabin
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# Posted: 9 Jun 2014 07:43pm
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Thanks for the pic. I think I am going to try something like that. But I hqve been a lot more research on pex and I do not think I will be able to use it. I am planning water collection and then using chlorine to keep out the funk, and it turns out that pex and chlorine are not a good match. Now I am leaning toward galvanized steel, especially after I go a look at your fancy hot water dolly.
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razmichael
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# Posted: 9 Jun 2014 08:26pm
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Quoting: MO Cabin using chlorine to keep out the funk,
Can you share the source for this? In a Canadian study Canadian Study Chlorine and Pex, although there was some degradation, the conclusions indicate that the life of the pex would be between 52 to 93 years (depending on the stats). This is considered good for plumbing material. Naturally lots of things will influence this but I'm comfortable using it and I'm chlorinating the storage water from the lake.
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MO Cabin
Member
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# Posted: 9 Jun 2014 08:37pm
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Thanks for the pic. I think I am going to try something like that. But I hqve been a lot more research on pex and I do not think I will be able to use it. I am planning water collection and then using chlorine to keep out the funk, and it turns out that pex and chlorine are not a good match. Now I am leaning toward galvanized steel, especially after I go a look at your fancy hot water dolly.
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Brettski
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# Posted: 10 Jun 2014 11:01pm
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Pex rocks, hands down. Cheap and super easy to install.
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MO Cabin
Member
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# Posted: 11 Jun 2014 07:02pm
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I found many sources that said chlorine was bad for pex. This is one article that I found that puts everything in one spot.
http://failures.wikispaces.com/PEX+Plumbing+Failures
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MO Cabin
Member
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# Posted: 11 Jun 2014 07:33pm
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www.mrpexsystems.com/.../MrPEX_Chemical%20Resistance%20Chart.pdf
Here is another link.
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bobrok
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# Posted: 11 Jun 2014 07:41pm
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MO Cabin, that last link you just added is broken.
I consulted with a water/filtration company when installing my pex plumbing system and I was surprised to learn that very little chlorine was needed to disinfect stored water (non-potable).
I was told that adding 1/4 oz. of 6% solution to a 55 gal. drum was sufficient, after filtration. Most camp people I've spoken with are severely over-chlorinating their water as compared with this recommendation, so I am wondering if the minimal amount I'm adding is harmful.
One thing I haven't figured out yet is if it is necessary, and if so how often, to re-chlorinate stored water. Also, does chlorine affect those plastic storage drums?
Also remember, for me this is a seasonal use camp, 7+/- months a year.
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razmichael
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# Posted: 12 Jun 2014 07:29am - Edited by: razmichael
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As per most studies, they can be interpreted in different ways. The report on the wikispaces site discusses a number of possible failure causes for PEX, the most likely being the fittings. Although the impact of Chlorine is noted, it also states that "The standard tests for a 50 year lifetime in regards to chlorine, however the standard does not test for hot and cold conditions in the same pipe or the use of chlorine dioxide. (Clark 2005)". Tests carried out in the study I noted earlier Canadian Study concludes with a minimum 50 year life for PEX when used with chlorinated water. It is made clear that the study does not account for all other factors that may impact the material and thus the lifespan (UV exposure, exposure to other contaminates etc).
Quoting: bobrok MO Cabin, that last link you just added is broken
Here is the full link MO Cabin was referencing Chemical Resistance.
Again I do not see a clear issue from this chart. The Chlorinated water (<3%) line shows no impact until you reach the very high temperature of 180 degrees where you should reduce the maximum pressure to 80% approved level. In general, chlorine at <3% is a very high concentration in the range of some lighter household bleach right from the bottle. As bobrok points out, the dilution factor when using household bleach for water disinfectant is substantial. The line in the chart for concentrated chlorine does not apply.
Lots of generalities here and there are lots of examples of material use that is deemed safe and long lasting only to find out 20 years later that they are failing or killing us so it becomes a bit of a personal decision and risk assessment. In my case, I'm very comfortable using PEX in my cabin. I use high quality fittings and crimp rather than use the sharkbite type connectors (as easy as they are to use just one more thing to fail). I'm happy that the ease of use and installation over copper etc outweighs the risk. In addition, the routing of the lines in the cabin make it easy to replace so my grandkids can easily patch up any leaks in 40 years (certainly won't be my problem).
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