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Sustainusfarm
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# Posted: 24 May 2013 12:12pm
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Need some ideas on how to prevent the water line coming in from the well from freezing in winter when we are using it...my general idea is this...
The line will be buried 6 feet under ground coming from the well then come straight up under the cabin close to an outside wall but up through the floor. I was thinking about putting a heat tape line on the pipe starting about 6 ft down and coming up through the floor to about foot above the finished floor in the cabin. Then I would wrap the pipe and the heat tape line with some sort of insulation then backfill the line... I thought I would plug the heat tape to an outlet that is only live when the there is power on to the pump....that way if the pump is running the cable is on and then when the pump is of and all the water drains back to the well the tape will be off. See pic for my rough diagram..... Any feed back would be great!!
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 24 May 2013 01:34pm
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6ft depth seems excessive, you only need to be below the frost line. Are you sure the pipe will drain when the pump is off? If there is no way for air to get in the line it may not drain down. If there is a way for air to get in then you have a back flow situation that could contaminate the water. Just ruminating.
Heat tape is great if you have power for it. I plan to run a 3 inch conduit up through the ground into the cabin, the wrap the poly water pipe with insulation and pull it through the conduit, or perhaps fill the conduit with spray foam insulation after the pipe is in. This should be adequate where I am, but in extreme freezing your tactics of heat tape and water in the pipe only during use might be the only solution.
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Martian
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# Posted: 24 May 2013 02:18pm
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First off, the water isn't going to drain back into the well. There is probably a check valve in the pump. Besides, you are going to have an in-well pressure tank, aren't you? Secondly, moving water doesn't freeze. You want the heat tape to keep the stagnate water from freezing between uses.
My suggestion is to enclose the pipe in a large diameter (12") section of schedule 40 pipe up to the bottom of the house. Fill it with dirt up to the frost line and then foam the rest. You might even consider looping a hot water line into the tube if conditions are that severe where you live. But with regular use, the well water will keep the insulation above 32 degrees. I would have a drain somewhere so you could drain the line down to the frost line if you were going to be gone for a few days during cold weather.
Here in Kansas, I've wrapped mine with 6" of insulation and built a chase around it. I haven't had any problems down to -5F. The crawlspace is enclosed, too and the floors aren't insulated; so that helps keep it from freezing. And, I'm here, using water, pretty much all the time which helps.
Tom
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Just
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# Posted: 24 May 2013 03:22pm - Edited by: Just
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My heat tape said to leave a air space between the tape and the insulation. I used 6 in. outer pipe ,insulation ,3in inner pipe ,air space , heat tape taped to the water pipe .worked flawless for me . by and read your tape instructions ,first ..
O ,BTW my heat cable had its own thermostat on and off at 34 * cheep to run ,no need to worry about turning it off to save in warmer weather ..
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GomerPile
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# Posted: 24 May 2013 03:23pm
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The pipe coming up into the house just needs to be insulated real well. Application of 4-6 inches of foam around the pipe from the frost line to the house should be fine depending on your climate.
You can buy a sheet of 2 inch thick foam and some tape to make a solid foam block. Then drill a hole thru the middle of it for your water pipe. The foam block can be burried. Just be sure there are no gaps in the foam....maybe glue the layers together.
For insurance attach heat tape and use it in case of freezing.
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Sustainusfarm
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# Posted: 24 May 2013 04:56pm
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Quoting: Martian First off, the water isn't going to drain back into the well.
I am having a bleeder put in so when I shut the power to the pump and open the one tap I have all the water will drainback to the well.
My intent is to be able to get water in the winter, so I will only heat the
pipe coming out of the ground up into the cabin when I have the water and pump on....
Quoting: bldginsp 6ft depth seems excessive, you only need to be below the frost line.
We put all water lines to 6 ft here because out frost line in this sany soil is 5ft sometimes in the winter...central Wisconsin is wherewe are.
Martian, we will have -5 for two weeks at a time some winters...LOL
Gomer, I like the foam block idea...but Iknow I will need heat tape, it is just a given here.
Thanks for all the feedback this is great stuff and gives me more to think about....
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Rossman
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# Posted: 28 May 2013 11:35pm
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My problem is going to be that it's solid bedrock 20" down at my building site.
So there is no way to get below the frost line  I guess I will have to use insulation and heat tape....hopefully heat tape doesn't draw too much power as we will be off-grid!
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Sustainusfarm
Member
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# Posted: 28 May 2013 11:44pm
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I just did some investigating about heat tape...only draws 18 watts when it is on!
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Rossman
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# Posted: 29 May 2013 06:33am
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Thanks Sustainusfarm, that's actually not too bad in the scheme of things, good to know!
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lex
Member
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# Posted: 28 Sep 2015 04:10pm
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Sustainusfarm
I'm thinking of changing my cabin water system a bit to make it easier to drain in the winter. Right now I blow out all the lines as best I can and cross my fingers. All the excess water from my pressure tank runs out on the ground at a low point.
Because the check valve keeps water from going back down to the well, I usually end up with a bit of frozen (but not burst) pipe there.
How is your system working out for you? I don't want my water running all the way back to the well for fear the pump will lose prime and have to work very hard every time I call for water. Thanks and good luck this winter!
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old243
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# Posted: 28 Sep 2015 10:53pm
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I am partly off topic, In case there is a problem with a frozen pipe. I worked for a municipal water system , in my former life. We used a garden sprayer full of hot water. replace the nozzle, with a small flexible plastic hose, 1/4 inch. make a small nozzle that fits in the end , with a small hole in it. You have to disconnect the frozen pipe to gain entry. Pump up your sprayer and shove it down the pipe , when you reach the frozen part you will feel it cutting into the ice. We have gone up to 30 feet, to thaw a pipe. You have to start the pump as soon as possible, as the pipe will refreeze. Leave a tap running a bit, possibly until frost goes out of the ground . In our area that could be April. Have done this many times so know it works. old243
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CentralWiCabin
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# Posted: 2 Nov 2015 11:15pm
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Sustainusfarm
I see you started this thread almost 2 years ago, do you have any lessons, ideas or experiences to share? I will be getting to the water part of my build next year. Thanks.
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DaveBell
Moderator
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2015 01:53am
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"close to an outside wall"
Heat envelope of cabin - negligible help.
As stated by the other folks above, you don't want the water to drain back, you do want a large as possible outer pipe with insulation between the pipes.
I would add a Heat Tape Thermostat set to 38, that has the sensor on the pipe or close, so pipe freezing is guarded when you are away. Not a flow detected setup.
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Rowjr
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# Posted: 3 Nov 2015 09:34am
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What about using those below the frost line check valves that open from above ground using a lever like for outside connections but run it under your building to where you can turn on the water using the above ground lever. Not sure what they are cold. A farm spout, not sure but I was thinking about doing the same thing possibley
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 5 Nov 2015 02:42pm
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where is your pressure tank going to be? I see the pitless adapter, but will you have all your tanks, switches etc inside the cabin? The pipe is plenty deep, I would insulate and heat tape, then insulate again over the pipe supplying the cabin.
Where my cabin is, it gets real cold, they use a vault under ground. Made from large concrete tiles with a manhole cover. Well pipe comes into the vault via a pitless adapter (in the old days, well cap was in pit, but floods, well pit would fill with water and pollute well, hence, pitless adapter) and now run power to the pit, this is where all your tanks, pressure vessels etc are located. Keeps from freezing too and if a pipe did break, no harm to your cabin. Then run supply pipe from there into cabin insulated as mentioned. The water will not bleed off, there is a check valve or foot valve at the well pump. You want it to maintain water in there. Only exception is a livestock well system which you don't have or probably want.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 5 Nov 2015 02:45pm
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Quoting: Rowjr What about using those below the frost line check valves that open from above ground using a lever like for outside connections but run it under your building to where you can turn on the water using the above ground lever. Not sure what they are cold. A farm spout, not sure but I was thinking about doing the same thing possibly
Great idea, just install one of those frost free outside hydrants (basically a hose bib) and you can open it to bleed well line between well and cabin) and when its bled of, shut off and hydrant will also bleed itself off underground. It can be anywhere between well vault and cabin. Plus a good area for outside faucet. Put lots of gravel at base where it ties into pipe to make bleeding of easy.
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Sustainusfarm
Member
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# Posted: 18 Nov 2015 02:25pm
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***Update***
After 2 winters of having a well I can tell you how well the pressure tank is doing. My photo at the beginning of the thread is pretty accurate for how we had it installed...the company that drilled my well did in fact put the pressure tank in the well casing itself about 10 feet below the frost line.
To drain the system I simply turn power off to the well pump and then open the outside hose spigot to allow it to release the pressure from the pressure tank, then I open the other valves, sinks, etc. to allow the water in the pipes to drain right back into the well...There is no pressure tank above ground in the cabin like is typical so there is nothing to freeze.
I did have the well guys wrap heat tape around the pipe coming up into the cabin so I can easily get water in the winter for a weekend and then drain it before I leave....
So far it works flawlessly!!! I am more than happy! and the water is super fantastic tasting!
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CentralWiCabin
Member
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# Posted: 18 Nov 2015 10:33pm
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Thanks for the update.
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Sustainusfarm
Member
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# Posted: 18 Nov 2015 10:41pm
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CentralWiCabin.... If you want to take a look at the setup I have just shoot me an email...I always like an excuse to go to the cabin!
1homeseller1@gmail.com
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CentralWiCabin
Member
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# Posted: 24 Nov 2015 08:44pm
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Sustainusfarm...thanks for the invite. If I remember from some of your previous posts your a bit north of me in Coloma, I think? We are outside of Westfield but I am done building for this year, I spend the whole season building and need a rest. Deer season is here and ice fishing won't be far behind. I may take you up on that offer next year though. Enjoy your winter visits to the cabin and watch the roads - they weren't that great last weekend.
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Sustainusfarm
Member
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# Posted: 24 Nov 2015 10:03pm
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You are correct...I am in Coloma...I often times drive up just for the day from home in Milwaukee. Im also interested in how your spray foam insulation is going at your place??
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CentralWiCabin
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# Posted: 27 Nov 2015 09:28pm
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Building the cabin wound up being more expensive than I had planned. Currently it is "dried" in and work has stopped for this year. The spray foam will go in early next year when I've had a couple months to replenish my funding. The plan is still to have the floor, walls and roof sprayed.
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Sustainusfarm
Member
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# Posted: 3 Dec 2015 12:13pm
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CentralWiCabin...where are you from?? We live in Milwaukee ....are you anywhere close??
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CentralWiCabin
Member
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# Posted: 5 Dec 2015 07:11pm
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We are in the Lake Geneva area (Walworth County). Milwaukee is about a 45 minute drive up Highway 43.
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