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IvarForkbeard
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 10:14am
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Hi, long time lurker, first time poster here... Please be gentle!
Long story short, my current plan for water in our sauna and cabin boils down to building the sauna with enough space in the rafters for an IBC container. I can run a pump intermittently to fill the container (we're off-grid with painfully small power output).
I'm thinking it will be best to have this container in the sauna, as we are subject to long, cold winters here, and at least the sauna will be well-heated a few times a week. Hopefully enough to keep the tank from freezing.
Is it realistic to think I can safely put an IBC container eight feet over my head while full? That's a metric ton of water! I don't want to get squished... How strong an interior support wall(s) do I need to have under it? Should I see if I can get someone to actually weld together some sort of unobtrusive stand for it?
Further details - I'm thinking of building the sauna with a 12x12 footprint. Dividing it into three rooms by dividing it in half, and then one of those halves into quarters... There would be a "T" of walls in the centre, and I would set the tank over that area, as it would be the roomiest, and also the strongest, in my minds eye...
Any thoughts? I have other crazy ideas that I'll present, as I see how savage you all can be with this one... Thanks for your thoughts in advance!
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Just
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 11:33am - Edited by: Just
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Many here will tell you that it will not give you much pressure unless it's up 30 ft in the air, much better to bury the tank and put a small 12 volt pump in the bottom. Advantages are, frost proof, self draining, lots of pressure, easy to fill. I have a flojet pump and tank based on their advice.
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IvarForkbeard
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 11:38am
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I guess I don't see a need for that much pressure. It's just running to the sinks. We don't have a shower or anything like that, and right now have been carrying water in jugs, so having a sink with a tap will be crazy luxurious as it is... I can't bury the tank, I only have a few inches of clay on top of bedrock... Putting the tank up in the rafters would also be a good use of that space, as we don't really have "mainfloor" space elsewhere to put it, and with -20 degree average temperatures for a month or two in winter, we need to have it in a semi-heated area...
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 11:43am
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Makes sence , the bigger the pipe and taps the better it will work.i'm Canadain so I understand cold ..
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davey25
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# Posted: 12 Mar 2013 10:31pm
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I have mine on 4 4x4's and its plenty strong..use a gas pump to fill it..no need to use your power
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IvarForkbeard
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# Posted: 13 Mar 2013 10:07am
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Thanks, based on your response, I looked up the compression strength of a vertical 4x4 beam... It looks like I can easily hold it up with a single 4x4, but I'll likely stack at least four or more under it in my "T" shape to ensure that it cannot go anywhere.
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IvarForkbeard
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# Posted: 13 Mar 2013 10:09am - Edited by: IvarForkbeard
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@Just - I'm just a little north of Thunder Bay, whereabouts are you?
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wakeslayer
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# Posted: 13 Mar 2013 11:34am
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Quoting: IvarForkbeard I'm thinking it will be best to have this container in the sauna, as we are subject to long, cold winters here, and at least the sauna will be well-heated a few times a week. Hopefully enough to keep the tank from freezing.
Unless you are there full time, I don't think that is enough. If that thing freezes and cracks, you are going to have a mess on your hands.
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Just
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# Posted: 13 Mar 2013 01:11pm
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IvarForkbeard
southwestern ont .were i live but I spend lots of time up your way hunting and fishing.have relatives in Fort Francis..
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 13 Mar 2013 03:23pm
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Your 4x4s will probably have plenty of compressive strength for the load, but an equally important design issue for weight like this is lateral bracing. It might not crunch straight down, but to the side like a parallelogram, unless the bracing is adequate. If you are in an earthquake zone, imagine what will happen when the earth lurches 3 feet to the left but the water tank inertia keeps it where it is....
And your rafter spans need to be carefully looked at. I wouldn't put a lot of water up in the air with a wood structure without getting it engineered, for my own peace of mind.
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IvarForkbeard
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# Posted: 13 Mar 2013 09:11pm
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@Wakeslayer - yes, we are here full-time... So it will not go more than two or three days without being heated up to sauna temperatures...
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IvarForkbeard
Member
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# Posted: 13 Mar 2013 09:47pm
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@bldginsp - I'm thinking of using another couple 4x4s as a header to tie these across to my solid log walls... Then cover them in t&g pine (on a diagonal?) which to my mind should provide good lateral stability?
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davey25
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# Posted: 13 Mar 2013 10:01pm
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I have 2x4 diagonally for cross bracing
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 13 Mar 2013 11:10pm
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Quoting: bldginsp I wouldn't put a lot of water up in the air with a wood structure without getting it engineered
very good advice bldginsp . this is not an area where seat of the pants backyard engineering should be relied on. anything you do is guesswork, you could guess correctly, you could be lucky and you could be unlucky. a bit of a crapshoot or a little like russian roulette. how lucky do you feel today?
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2013 08:54am
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Ivar- I have to agree with anonymous's stark assessment. I can't guess that what you propose is adequate. My guess about this is that getting a pump and whatever electrical required to operate it, and leaving the water tank on the ground, will be the easier route.
Guess I'm pretty lucky that I got a hillside property, my tank is at the top, collects rainwater, and I now have water pipes installed that take it to my campsite.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2013 12:15pm
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To find your water pressure and flow you can make up a simple test rig at home. Put a 5 gal bucket of water up on a ladder, attach a hose to it. The length of hose makes a difference, especially at low pressures, try to make it about the same diameter and length as the pipe you will use in your sauna. Make the height from water level to the faucet the same as it will be in your sauna. The outlet height on the buckt makes no difference, pressure comes from the height of the water level. Then you will know firsthand if the pressure and flow is ok for what you are doing. Gravity is good for a simple sink faucet, its quiet and reliable. I think you will be perfectly satisfied by overhead gravity water storage. Even for a cold shower. An IBC tote is a lot of water, a lot of weight and a lot of structure. 275 gallons weighs more than 1 ton. I think you are putting about 10x more water up there than you need to supply a slow, gravity fed faucet.
If you design for gravity then its easy to drain before it freezes. Pumps can be a hassle in comparison. It might freeze up plus be buried under 2 feet of snow!
To add a propane powered water heater keep in mind they they have safety shutoff features that will shut off at low water pressure. To run a propane heater youll need a 12v pump anyway. For gravity your tank has to be 30 feet up which could be way more hassle than a 12v pump.
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