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optimistic
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# Posted: 3 Dec 2012 11:47pm
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If you want to be picky then technically, if you read the rule closely (at least in NY), it is only for storing tools. But after speaking to a few builders about cabins they all mentioned the 144 as a way to go if you want small and no headaches/ aka - permits...
If I build a 12'x12' cabin with 16' walls and a second floor (with a bathroom and bedroom) then you think that will be too much of a stretch?
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 4 Dec 2012 12:09am - Edited by: MtnDon
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In my state, NM, here is the exact wording on that section...
A building permit shall not be required for the following:
1. One story detached accessory buildings used as tool and storage sheds, playhouses, and similar uses, provided the floor area does not exceed 200 square feet.
(the sq footage varies state to state, 120, 144, 200....)
"One story" makes that quite clear here in NM... There are 10 other kine items listed as exempt, then the following...
NOTE: Unless otherwise exempted, separate plumbing, electrical and mechanical permits will be required for the above-exempted items.
How does the wording in NY compare? Any mention of something like "one story"?
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Borrego
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# Posted: 4 Dec 2012 03:36am
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Also depends on where it is. Many people can build full houses with no permits as long as a) the neighbors are ok with it (aka doing the same thing) or b) there are no neighbors nearby....but having checked it out, I know it does apply only to the footprint, so you can add the 2nd story without a hassle. Solar should also be no problem, but what about water/sewer?
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optimistic
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# Posted: 4 Dec 2012 07:36am - Edited by: optimistic
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Found the exact wording -
"Exemptions. No building permit shall be required for work in any of the following categories:
(1) Construction or installation of up to two one-story detached structures associated with one- or two-family dwellings or multiple single-family dwellings (townhouses) which are used for tool and storage sheds, playhouses or similar uses, provided the gross floor area does not exceed 144 square feet (13.38 square meters)"
But here they specify what is an accessory structure:
"(1) An accessory building of 144 square feet or less in area not exceeding two in number, may be located in any required side or rear yard provided that such building shall not exceed 15 feet in overall height.
(2) Such building shall be set back at least 15 feet from side or rear lot line(s), and shall be located not less than 10 feet from the principal building or as required by the New York State Uniform Fire Prevention and Building Code."
15ft in overall height means from ground to top of roof... Also, they say 144sqft of gross floor area. Does that mean that another floor adds more floor area?
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morganplus8
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# Posted: 4 Dec 2012 09:13am
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For our part, we built the base of the cabin at the outside dimension of 108 squ.ft. to meet the maximum legal requirement of a shed in our province. We still needed a permit because it sits on a dock but that was easy to get, just takes money and a drawing for that. Where we are different is in the upper level, it is 10 ft x 16 ft and only 6 ft high which means it is not, by definition, a second floor (6 ft 6 in clearance). There is no running water inside the building so it is not possible to use it for over night, and thus, it conforms in every way as a shed. A shed that has over 260 squ.ft. that is! There is always a way to beat the system and for us building the cabin on the dock was it.
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TheWildMan
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# Posted: 4 Dec 2012 10:03am
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in NY the 144 limit is for a 1 story building, you could get away with a 12x12 with 8' walls and a loft in the top with roofs at 45 angles. I know several people who built like this, the dimensions permit use of lumber as it comes from the yard-no cutting and can be set up in a couple days.
people i know use the 12x12 wloft for things like small barns (2-3 cows with loft for hay, maple sugar shack with loft for storing buckets out of season, etc). in NY you can get a prebuilt storage building delivered in any size without permit, then fit out the inside as you like.
if its clearly a 2 story building you can get in trouble
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bobrok
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# Posted: 4 Dec 2012 10:22am
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A lot depends on the personnel who occupy the code enforcement offices also. Some won't budge and inch. I heard a story about one camp owner (here in NY) who had to re-do his roof trusses because he used the wrong fasteners...nothing wrong with the trusses, mind you, and after reinstalling everything the building inspector never bothered to show up to check...grrrrrrr....that would roast me.
Also there may be some loft consideration given as to whether or not the loft is occupied vs. storage space????
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TheWildMan
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# Posted: 4 Dec 2012 10:41am
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whos to say its not a cathedral cealing? a loft may or may not exist, unless the inspector shows up and insists on checking indoors (if its small enough to need no permit the chances are they won't even bother.
many rural code offices are part time (a contractor paid a couple bucks by the town in addition to regular work), most of these won't investigate anything unless your neighbors are making complaints.
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AYP1909
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# Posted: 4 Dec 2012 11:22am
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Quoting: optimistic (1) Construction or installation of up to two one-story detached structures associated with one- or two-family dwellings or multiple single-family dwellings (townhouses) which are used for tool and storage sheds, playhouses or similar uses, provided the gross floor area does not exceed 144 square feet (13.38 square meters)"
Optimistic:
I think that you are missing a key part of this code; these requirements are for accessory buildings, which means that you must have a primary dwelling before you can have an exempt detached structure.
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bobbotron
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# Posted: 4 Dec 2012 11:45am
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Maybe you should bite the bullet and get a permit? Or at least talk to your building inspector and see what they think?
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bobrok
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# Posted: 4 Dec 2012 12:09pm
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As much as I am against breaking laws I agree with bobbotron. You never know what/whom you are dealing with and being forewarned is being forearmed.
Case in point: In our club we have a 500 sq ft footprint, including attachments (decks). My camp is only 400 sq feet but with the addition of my connected deck I am at 523 sq feet. I didn't built it, I bought it so it was already approved before I came around, but there is no problem whatsoever.
Why? Not saying, but perhaps because my camp was built by one of the old boys who knew everyone, including the powers in office at that time.
A new camp being constructed also has a deck, but it is not attached to the structure; i.e.: free floating on posts. He got approval for the footers, etc., because it is a "removeable" structure. According to whom it is removeable I don't know but it went up and sits there.
Talk to the code people and be secure in the knowledge they share.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 4 Dec 2012 01:40pm
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The last three posters are right on. Don't try to sneak anything past building inspectors.You will be on their radar forever and they will make your life hell. Not to mention the tax side of it. You would not be paying taxes on the cabin and when caught you will have a BIG tax bill. Stay on the right side of the law and you won't have any problems. People on here that offer you advise to break the law won't be there to help you pick up the pieces when you get caught.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 4 Dec 2012 05:32pm
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I'll ditto that.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 4 Dec 2012 06:49pm
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i built my cabin with NO PERMIT....
is it required--YES
when will they find it-----maybe 5 or 10 years from now
got insurance on it no problem
to many rules and regs as it is ----but hey that's how we roll
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optimistic
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# Posted: 4 Dec 2012 08:19pm
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Alright. First of all as I mentioned in my original post - Quoting: optimistic if you read the rule closely (at least in NY), it is only for storing tools
Having said that, the guy who did my road and knows the in and outs of the town - suggested the 144 without me mentioning it as an option. He stated it as common knowledge. Furthermore, I once spoke with a building inspector in NY state DOB and I told him about how I am trying to build a small cabin and how hard it is. He then said - I think you can build under 200sqft or under 150sqft without a permit". It seems like a lot see it as a number that oyu can do without a permit.
BTW, if you really want to play around with codes in NY then there is a technical bulletin, that I have posted here before, and it gives the opinion for Hunting/Fishing cabin and it states that they are not dwellings but rather a utility structure as long as they are not connected to the grid or city sewer. It is not part of code yet but only a technical bulletin which means that this is how NY state DOB interprets the code for it...
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 5 Dec 2012 12:16am
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Quoting: optimistic ...a second floor (with a bathroom and bedroom) then you think that will be too much of a stretch?
Direct reply to the OP; Yes! At least that is obvious to me. My opinion. So go ahead, stretch all you want.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 5 Dec 2012 03:11am
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It's much cheaper to get a piddling permit than to pay lawyer fees, fines, and back tax bills once you get caught. Doing otherwise is being penny-wise and pound-foolish.
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optimistic
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# Posted: 5 Dec 2012 07:15am
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Thanks Don. I agree with you. It is a stretch..
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TheCabinCalls
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# Posted: 5 Dec 2012 09:11am
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What are you really trying to do? What are you really asking?
No one here is going to give you the A-Okay to stretch or break the code. Some get away with it because they are in an area where it is basically OK to do so. In my area they'd want to find it, tax it and make it uncomfortable.
Pick what you want to build based on your land, needs and desires. Then see if it works within the code. See if others are doing the same thing in your area. Talk to the officals without giving yourself away. Your answers aren't on this site. There is great knowledge and opinions, but it is your place and your due diligence to be had.
There isn't one right way to build a cabin. But there are ways that are easier and a lot more enjoyable. So my advise is to pick the path that is enjoyable.
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TomChum
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# Posted: 5 Dec 2012 05:18pm - Edited by: TomChum
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Well with Opti there is alway a lot of internettin'. But lots of subjects get floated, lots of good info. I can see folks getting a little weary of putting time into it when there plan goes the other direction next week. That's life though, no worries.
In my area it's against the rules too. But the tax they'd get from 144 sf is so miniscule the county doesn't have the manpower to go after taxation on 144sf; that may be a fight for nothing. Nor do they have the manpower to fight your neighbor who's demanding it. If another american citizen wants to eat your freedom fries then they are required to pursue it. It's all better if everyone just keeps cool. And it's easier for everyone to keep their cool when they don't even know about your project. Hidden is good. Build it under tree cover.
If you are looking for advice, break as few rules as possible. If you had a loft, but it was not standing room height, and was under 15 feet, and there is no stairway (only a ladder not attached) it's still a 1-story. Stretch within the rules.
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Sustainusfarm
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# Posted: 5 Dec 2012 08:43pm
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I must have been lucky! I wanted to stay within the rules of the 144 sqft....If I wanted to go bigger I had to have a house built to the Minimum sq ft requirement of 721 sqft! I just decided that it was cheaper to get a permit and build the minimum sqft. I paid $85 for the permit and scratched a plan on a napkin at the zoning office that they copied and put in my file....I cannot even remember anyone coming out to do an inspection because it still is not finished 15 yrs later! Maybe that is the key...to never finish so they have nothing to inspect!?? Suckers!!  Looks like I beat the system! IMO
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 5 Dec 2012 08:46pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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sometimes you just fall through the cracks....
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optimistic
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# Posted: 5 Dec 2012 09:04pm
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I wish sustainusfarm!!! I would have paid $1500 for a permit if I could.
Rules from state to state very soooooo much. Here are some break downs on how things are done in NY state (most areas - maybe further north it can be different). First you need stamped plans by an engineer or architect.. boom you're down $2000 minimum!!!! then a perc test and you have to get an engineer, again, to plan the spetic system which is another few thousands. Now you bring a guy to put in the septic. Only licensed contractors who have passed some kind of test for spetic systems can do it.. price (I called 6 people) - between 13-18k.. Then the fees and survyer to make sure your 500sqft (that is the minimum size of course) is far enough on your land. So what if it is 16 acers?? money needs to be spent everywhere. So how much are we done by now and still now cabin? 30? 25? and the shovel did not even hit the ground.
So those who keep saying " just get a permit" should realize that I am not trying to save $200. I am trying to afford a tiny cabin. If I could have drawn on a napkin and paid even $2000!!!! I would have done it. But no sir.
Don't take my word for it. There are several others here who wrote about the red tape of NY.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 5 Dec 2012 11:42pm
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Why didn't you do all this research before you bought the property? It sounds to me that you can't afford to build a legal cabin. Many of us have saved a lifetime to be able to afford the dream of a cabin. You have the land that is a good first step. So camp on it. Enjoy it and save your money so you can build without getting yourself into a bunch of legal trouble.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 6 Dec 2012 12:13am
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Quoting: Anonymous Many of us have saved a lifetime to be able to afford the dream of a cabin.
There's a lot of truth to those words. I turned 60 the summer we bought our mountain land. Paid cash. Built what we wanted with saved cash, too. Yes, several times since we bought it I have wished we had the property 30 years ago, but we weren't about to go into debt for something like this. Ya' can't always have what you want when you want it. Sometimes that is a good thing too, IMO. One can learn a lot on the road of life.
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bobbotron
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# Posted: 6 Dec 2012 09:25am
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Maybe you should do something like go 10x14 or 8x18, I think long and narrow better optimizes space. Skip the loft all together, it's a hassle to build/insulate and probably going to get you in (more) trouble w/o a permit. Build a big outdoor living space beside, maybe with a big awning.
Or maybe you should look into a "nonpermenant" structure like a yurt or canvas army tent?
"associated with one- or two-family dwellings or multiple single-family dwellings" - this sounds like you need this before you can get your 144 square foot building?
Maybe there are hunt camp rules?
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TomChum
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2012 01:05am - Edited by: TomChum
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Do something simple, low cost, low risk, low time input. Garden shed sounds like a good direction. It can be a guest cabin later on. Start to enjoy the land and while doing that, put in your time paying attention to the situation out there, finding out if neighbors are easygoing. Some neighbors are so glad to have a seldom guest and wouldn't think of ratting you out. Some don't even know they get to do that. You will learn a lot more actually using your land than internettin'.
Spring is coming.
(need a smilie for "broken record")
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bobbotron
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2012 12:04pm - Edited by: bobbotron
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TomChum gives great advice!
Our first building on the property was a 8x10 shed a local guy made and delivered for a fine price. It's on skids, on patio stones and cinder blocks. Sweet and simple. We had it set up pretty darn nice as a little sleeper, I bet if it were 8x12 it'd be all the sweeter.
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