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jimmer
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# Posted: 25 Apr 2012 12:06pm
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Hi,
I've been looking for a small stove to heat my small cabin (100sq ft + loft).
I'm starting to lean toward an old, small potbelly stove.
I've found two locally for good prices ($150 or $250).
The main difference between the two is that for $250 I'd get the first few feet of stove pipe coming out of it along with the stove.
The stove pipe has a 90 degree bend, but I will be going straight up through the ceiling, so it's not entirely useful.
The main advantage I can see of getting the pipe with the stove is that it has the piece that connects to the stove.
Is that bit of pipe tough to find and/or expensive?
ie., I'm comparing this stove for $150:
http://images.craigslist.org/5I15H15M73Kf3F33Lec49b037379963b01f88.jpg
to this stove for $250:
http://images.craigslist.org/5G35Jd5M33Ka3J23Nec4j1f332715717b1764.jpg
Thoughts?
Thanks!
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Mtnviewer
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# Posted: 25 Apr 2012 02:20pm
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Single wall stove pipe is or should be extremely easy & inexpensive to find. Personally I wouldn't go for either stove as they will produce a huge & polluting amount of smoke vs. having nice clean air at your get away cabin. Not good for you, your neighbours nor the environment. & 2nd, you will likely have to constantly be feeding them wood & I doubt they have any good the temperature control. They look like they do not hold much wood, which to me is a PITA. I also hate getting up in the middle of the night to feed a wood stove let alone constantly feed it. I also would worry about the possible creosote build up from such an old stove & the belching smoke it could produce if dampened down. Maybe nice to look at, but I'd run away from both these stoves as they don't otherwise offer any benefits & look scary. One chimney fire could be all it takes to regret your use? Remember, you get what you pay for.
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jimmer
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# Posted: 25 Apr 2012 02:30pm
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Thanks for your thoughts.
I'm aware that stove pipe should be easy to find, I'm more curious about the piece that mates the round stove pipe to the oval opening on the top of the stove -- I don't believe that piece will be as common to find, but I'm unsure.
As for whether to burn wood or not (which seems to be your main problem with these stoves?)... This is a very small (insulated) cabin on the west coast of BC, so I don't see myself needing a stove that holds a lot of wood -- just an hour here and there to warm things up in the morning or after going for a surf. I'm entirely off-grid, so electrical heating is out, and I don't see burning propane as particularly appealing (I have no end of free driftwood to burn, and propane is quite expensive).
thanks.
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 25 Apr 2012 04:13pm
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@Mtnviewer- what makes you think either of these stoves would produce "a huge & polluting amount of smoke". My experience has been quite contrary. I have an old box stove we found in an abandoned, collapsed cabin (the land owner told us we could have it). It does have the issue of not being large enough to burn all night, but with good quality fire wood it burns just as clean and creosote-free as you could ever hope for. We still clean the flu every few years, but that is just for saftey sake- not because it needs it.
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brokeneck
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# Posted: 25 Apr 2012 06:32pm
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The true cost of a stove is in the piping -- I found a near new Vermont Castings Aspen on Craigslist including all the stovepipe for $400 -- I use it in my 10x20.The pipe especially the double wall that you need to go through the roof is pricey -- you can see my installation if you search "yubin".
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BRL
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2012 09:14am
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Jimmer, no problem on the oval, 6" round pipe with fit over it. Just oval one end of your black pipe ( you will probably need a 16" piece or so) top stays round. Very easy to do. Brian
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Mtnviewer
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2012 11:48am - Edited by: Mtnviewer
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I don't have a problem with burning wood in an EPA approved clean burning stove which uses secondary burn technology. But it would seem to me that these stoves are too old to have that technology & the stoves are still quite expensive. When I've looked for used wood stoves for my log cabin, there were many options of EPA approved stoves, so given the choice, I'd rather pollute less than more.
IF the stove is burning HOT HOT HOT, then yes there is LESS pollutants, but still more than with the newer technology stoves. But that also increases room temperature, fire hazards & so on. It's do-able & cleanISH. ANY smouldering or low temp burning will produce particulate laden polluting health hazardous blue smoke, in any type of wood stove, but those with secondary burners will burn the smoke. Depending on the air movement at his cabin's location, he could cause himself more thick hanging smoke & pollution than in Tokyo or Shanghai. Calm air, an inversion layer, a cabin in a thick forest could trap the smoke. A clean burning EPA stove "used properly with dry wood" would burn the smoke.
I don't view propane as being a better or even good option for the environment & would not recommend it.
One thing that Jimmer is not considering is the often LONG TIME that it takes to heat a cold interior space. It's not likely that you'll fire your stove up & immediately feel warm especially after surfing in the cool Pacific. Even if your stove is burning HOT, it could take several hours to heat up a small cold interior space, as the heat first get's sucked into the wood framing, first above your head & possibly having warm air getting trapped in your loft & taking a longer time to reach the floor & then the heat will eventually absorb into the lower walls & floors. Meanwhile all that time at floor level, you will still be cool or even quite cold while you wait what "could be" a long time for all the structural wood to first absorb the heat. You might have to stand right next to the stove & so heat up small sections of your body placed & that could be slow. Or you could eventually sit up on the loft where the warm air will rise to & get trapped. It's likely to be too hot in the loft & too cold at floor level if the warm air can't be circulated.
My 15'x15' off grid log cabin will take a full day, sometimes 2 days to warm up to be a comfortable room temperature, depending on the season with a hot burning wood stove. However, the feet or floor temperature is always cooler. What feels comfortable at the head can be cold at the floor. Hot at the head is warm at the floor. My off grid log cabin isn't prefectly sealed for leaks or insulated as well as my off grid house, which also takes a full day but with a much larger wood stove (& clean burning), so I know that some of the heat escapes in the cabin vs. my off grid house.
My point is, that other than for looks, the stoves that Jimmer is looking at, beyond the pipe problem, is not as simple or complete a solution as just starting a fire in it & expecting to be instantly warm after a day of surfing in the cold pacific or from being cold after a west coast rain storm. To me, they are too small & too inefficent & a waste of money. The fireboxes look too small & inefficient to have a fire burning all day while you are out surfing, with the hope of returning to a warm cabin. They also look to be too small to keep a space heated without requiring constant attention. Burn hot & you will be constantly feeding the thing. Burn cool & you won't get much heat & you will create smoke & creosote.
To some of you they may be a good solution, but other than in a warm southern climate, I doubt it. Just my .02 cents of experience as a Canadian living in B.C. who has been where Jimmer is now, FWIW. 
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jimmer
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2012 12:10pm
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Thanks again for your thoughts, they make more sense now!
I'm still stuck for a heat source, though, unfortunately. The appeal of these stoves is that they're small... which means they'll be a bit easier to fit in an already very small space (100sq foot floor space + loft).
Any of the affordable used stoves I've been able to locate have been quite large -- both physically and heat-wise (an already too-small 10x10 room is suddenly much smaller if there's a 3'x3' stove in the corner, especially considering the clearances around it!).
Unfortunately, if these small-footprint potbelly stoves are unsuitable for the task, then I'm back to looking at at ridiculously expensive "marine" stoves -- small footprints, and supposedly well-designed and modern.
SIGH.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2012 01:10pm
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Is this cabin already built? I ask because one of the most important things when trying to heat a small cabin is insulation. IMO, heating a small cabin like this is more difficult than a large cabin. It's especially hard when it is not occupied continuously. Lots of thermal mass can work with your heating efforts but work against you if the cabin sits unoccupied for long periods.
So my solution starts with the basic construction. If it's not been built yet start with good insulation in floor, walls and roof. Once I get our 16x30 warmed up, a process that takes a few hours when the cabin is sitting at freezing. But once it is warm I may only have to burn a fire twice a day. R19 walls, R19 floor, R45 ceiling/roof.
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jimmer
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2012 01:23pm
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Hi,
The cabin has not yet been built... Soon, though
I was planning to insulate everything, as described...
Though I admit to at times having thought "this would be easier if it was drafty and uninsulated, because then I could get a stove that throws as much heat as I want without a problem..."
Fun stuff.
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Mtnviewer
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2012 01:25pm
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Off grid living is easier & affordablr via conservation vs. creation of energy. Is better weather sealing & excellent insulation doable & more affordable than the marine stove? I'd insulate really well to hold heat in, vs. creating heat that would escape quickly. What about researching if you can add diy passive solar options too? A diy rocket stove is small, cheap & efficient. Do you need it NOW vs. eventually finding an efficient used marine or other stove option. Craigslist, Kijiji, forums like this may eventually give good options. Your small cabin is saving you money, a good stove is the cost of saving on a cheap cabin etc. is how I'd look at it. What about other more energy efficient building options like straw bale? Without money one needs to make compromises & at some point pay the piper anyway. If cheap, easy & energy efficient were that easy, you'd have an answer by now or via Google.
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jimmer
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2012 02:55pm
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Indeed, the plan is for a well-built, well-insulated cabin to keep the heat in.
BUT, I still must have a source of heat
Would something like this be more reasonable and efficient, as you've been describing?
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200394664_200394664
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PA_Bound
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2012 08:22pm
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I guarantee you, particularly if you insulate well, that stove will more than warm your cabin if your not careful. The stove that I referenced above, that I got from the abandoned cabin, is an old version of that exact stove.
Mtnviewer indicates above that "My 15'x15' off grid log cabin will take a full day, sometimes 2 days to warm up to be a comfortable room temperature, depending on the season with a hot burning wood stove." I don't know what to make of that. Now, granted, I don't have a loft, but my version of this stove will raise the inside temperature of my 16'x16' cabin 50 degrees in about two hours. And that's with the only insulation in the ceiling being the 1/2 inch of drywall covering the rafters. We've had the cabin into the 90's inside, and below 0 outside. So that will definitely heat your place up- but it likely will not stay lit all night unless you get up and feed it.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 26 Apr 2012 09:32pm
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We get about a 20 degree F rise per hour, average. That's to get the air temperature around 68 to 70 F. Then it takes another 2 or 3 hours before the contents get warmed up a good amount. Items in the cupboards, closet, drawers stay cold long unless the doors/drawers are opened after the air temp hit 70.
Note that something like aforementioned rocket mass heater will take longer to get the air warming up as the mass has to be heated through first. They work best in a cabin that is used continuously. I know a family in northern MI that uses one in their cordwood home.
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TomChum
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# Posted: 27 Apr 2012 12:31am - Edited by: TomChum
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I think the stoves in the Craigslist ads you linked to are "coal stoves". I like their classical looks, but they don't burn logs well because the wood will be "vertical", it burns too hot and too fast. You might have to cut your firewood into short "chunks" (like a pile of briquettes), as opposed to "logs".
Here's a pic of one of those little stoves that I tried in my cabin. I paid $500 for mine. It was made in 1944, and was brand new condition, virtually unused. It didn't work for me but the C/L competition was fierce, so maybe I can sell it for $500. 
See a similar thread called "Heating a small 10x10 cabin?"
It took 2 full days to get my 180 SQ Ft cabin warm, and that's babysitting it, loading it full which was about 2 hours burn. It took a LOT of effort to try to heat a Log cabin (so much thermal mass). If I came back to the cbin in 2 1/2 hours the fire was OUT. I removed it and installed a conventional stove (Vermont Castings "Intrepid" from 1982 ) where the firewood lays horizontal. Now it takes "less than 2 days" to get the logs warm.
I re-posted your craigslist pics (below) because in 7 days the Craigslist Ads you linked to will be expired then nobody can see the stoves being discussed.
$125 craigslist stove
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$250 craigslist stove
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 27 Apr 2012 01:17am
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Never thought of the coal stove angle.  If they are there should be a grate in the bottom. At least any coal burners I've seen had grates with an ash pit below.
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TomChum
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# Posted: 27 Apr 2012 10:52am - Edited by: TomChum
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Yes there is a little grate that the coal sits on. The air control below is in a door which opens to clean the ash pit below.
I suspect it was about 1/2 size for my cabin, thus it might be fine in a 100 Sq Ft, modern well-insulated cabin that's NOT logs. If you want your cabin to warm quickly, insulate well and don't put heavy stuff on the walls (sheetrock) use something lightweight (wood).
One of these may be the right stove for your 100 Sq FT cabin! They look cool, don't take much floor space and the price is right. And I suppose you can sell it if it doesn't work.
Don't worry about the oval stovepipe, it's just a normal 6" pipe that you ovalize by hand and slip it over the joint.
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jimmer
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# Posted: 27 Apr 2012 01:58pm
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Thanks for all the input, guys.
I think for now I've narrowed it down to either grabbing one of these potbelly stoves and seeing just how bad it really is (worse-case I could resell on craigslist for not much less than I pay), or possibly ordering one of the 'fatsco' boat stoves (http://www.fatscostoves.com/), which look very interesting as well.
The fatsco stoves are somewhat affordable (they look to cost less than $300), and have built-in heat shields so they can be used in very small spaces. From what I read, they work best with coal but can also be used with wood, which would be ideal.
The biggest problem with them, as opposed to potbelly stoves, is that I'd need to source and buy 3" or 4" (depending on the stove model) stove pipe... and I guess I'd need 3" or 4" stainless chimney pipe for outside, too?
Geads, this all seems like a lot of work just to get some heat inside a shed
thanks again.
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TomChum
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# Posted: 27 Apr 2012 02:18pm - Edited by: TomChum
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If I was you I'd get the $125 potbelly stove that uses normal stovepipe. The 1 foot square vertical foootprint (leaves 99 sq feet for you).
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jimmer
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# Posted: 3 May 2012 12:09pm
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Hi TomChum,
In your other thread about the potbelly stoves you mentioned you re-sealed the entire stove you'd bought, and it worked better.
Last night I picked up one of the two stoves I mentioned (I got it for $100, so it's worth the gamble...), and there are some gaps where the pieces link up that I'd like to try sealing. I figured I'd just coat it with some furnace cement, but maybe there's a better approach?
thanks!
james.
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TomChum
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# Posted: 3 May 2012 12:56pm
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I dis-assembled the stove and re-assembled it, sealing with furnace cement at all of the joints. I don't know how long this stuff lasts. My stove had NO SEALANT. After sealing it worked fine.
If you are inclined to save space by mounting it close to a wall, use metal with a 1" air gap. Be sure there is space below for the air to enter and space for air to leave. See thread called "heat shield" here.
I set my stove 32" from the wall so that people could stand all the way around it. And also it allows you to hang wet clothes on the wall to dry.
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jimmer
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# Posted: 3 May 2012 01:18pm
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Thanks Tom.
I'll rebuild it as planned...
Yeah, I've read up on the heat shield approach a lot. Looks like the way to go!
thanks
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exsailor
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# Posted: 4 May 2012 02:24pm
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The two stoves shown are small laundry stoves. They are coal stoves, which is one reasons why they are so small. They would not work too well for wood. You woulld have to cut small chunks of wood to burn in the fire box, and you couldn't put too many in ata time. More work for less heat, that is unless you had a coal supply close by. I do like the looks of them though, meaning the are visually pleasing, but not vary practical.
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 4 May 2012 02:43pm
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The two stoves frm craig list maybe cheap and chearful, but I would go for the other arine stove. We have one and though its not large and will take time to radiate heat, I think its more practical for the basic usgae you would require. Safer too.
We ahve a more rectangular shape, and holds more wood and any piping is easily bought. You do not need double walled pipe for the entire length either. Single wall for the interior and double once going through the ceiling to roof.
To me, it is really the only main "applicance" that keeps one and (guests) comfortatble during spring, fall and winter visits. Well worth it to be patient and find a small "box" type stove that is above expectations rather than a chance that its to small.
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jimmer
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# Posted: 4 May 2012 03:00pm
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Thanks for the comments guys, but you're late to the party... as mentioned, i bought the one for $100 the other night.
We'll see how it works out, worst-case I replace it with something more expensive later. Best-case, it's good enough for this very-small, insulated shack in a moderate climate...
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