Sewage setup/ideas - Small Cabin Forum (1)

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Small Cabin Forum / Cabin Construction / Sewage setup/ideas

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Author	Message
optimistic Member	# Posted: 21 Mar 2012 08:39pm Reply Hi all, I planned to use a compost toilet and find a solution to greywater but the sewage officer researched for me what I can do and said that I HAVE to install a septic system..... He was very nice tough and did agree that I need a very small system after I explained to him that I will use it very sporadically. This makes my compost toilet idea irrelevant. I know nothing about septic systems. How much they cost, what are my options, can I DIY a little bit, how is the process from owning land to having it installed goes, and so on.... Can anyone shed some light and offer some advice?

Just Member	# Posted: 21 Mar 2012 10:41pm Reply last one i put in was 4800 $ 700 gal. tank 400ft. drain pipe 25 ton of 3\4 stone. 1 distribution box , 8 hours backhoe time , rental of laser level ... should be at least 100 ft from any water well or water corse,you also need to establish the type of soil u have and the ground water depth .these things determine how many feet of pipe u will need , the sight needs to be quite level . your inspector will help you with these things or he should.!!!good luck

Martian Member	# Posted: 21 Mar 2012 11:08pm Reply If you have to pass a septic inspection, get the requirements from the inspecting agency. Tom

PA_Bound Member	# Posted: 21 Mar 2012 11:16pm Reply When you met with the sewage officer, did he mention anything about needing percolation tests? That is normally the first step in any septic installation- and usually required (along with a system design) to even apply for a septic permit. From those tests it can be determined if/where the soil would support a septic system, and what type of system is required. At my house I have a traditional septic system. At my cabin however, testing indicated I needed an alternative system- requiring many more $'s to install.

turkeyhunter Member	# Posted: 22 Mar 2012 06:43am Reply the last one i installed was at my old cabin, a 200 gallon farm fuel tank( steel) , buried into the ground w/ backhoe, added a 75 ft drain field , took a backhoe dug the ditch---added layer of gravel, pipe, 2nd layer of gravel, and layer of roofing tar paper and covered with dirt, it's only been working for about 22 years with no problem. Had about 250 bucks into this system.

optimistic Member	# Posted: 22 Mar 2012 01:17pm Reply Thanks for the info guys. PAbound - The lot did pass this test and the broker who has the listing estimates a cost of 8-10k for a septic. I did have an amazing revaluation after speaking to a sewage planning officer at DEP. He said that because I won't have a well or be connected to public water - I can have a privy(outhouse) instead. He then said that I do not have to use the privy as a toilet, having a compost in the cabin instead, and just use the retaining tank in the privy for my grey water - periodically pumping it of course. This will be an excellent option for me. The only thing that might be a bit of a problem (he says that it is a grey area a bit in my case) is how am I allowed to get the grey water into the privy. Because to have a privy I cannot have 'water under pressure' (??) and how is that defined is what is at question and that is what I need to ask the sewage officer in the township. I would love to just run a pvc pipe form the cabin into the privy but I am not sure if that will make the entire thing in default as it is water running in a pipe.... the setup I wanted to have is a large 150g tank on the roof of the container which will basically be like a water tower - connected to the sinks, shower, and hot water tank below it. This tank will receive water from a water pump which will be connected to a second tank (sitting on the ground) that will collect rain water. I am not sure if this is considered a water under pressure system. Does anyone know what is the requirements or guidelines for privy/outhouse in PA? Will I be allowed to put it in myself? What is the maximum or minimum size? Thanks!!!

PA_Bound Member	# Posted: 22 Mar 2012 06:12pm - Edited by: PA_Bound Reply Opti... I don't have much guidance for you here... but I am very interested in what you find out as I am trying to navigate these same issues. My experience working with the Township sewer officials has been less than satisfactory. It doesn't matter what question I ask or scenario I present, their answer always seem to be "you need a septic system". I don't think that's always true (as you may be learning), but I can't get them to consider other options. I will add one point in their defense, in that I don't think they have much formal guidance for cabin scenarios. So, unfortunately, it may often come down to the interpretation of the individual officer. And with most Townships having few (one?) officers, their decisions seems to often be the law. I would suggest contacting the SEO in the township again, and see if you can pin him down on what he would allow.

PA_Bound Member	# Posted: 22 Mar 2012 06:21pm - Edited by: PA_Bound Reply Some additional thoughts on your specific questions. I do not consider water in a drain pipe to be "under pressure". Water in a drain flows by gravity (down hill slope in the pipe), not water pressure. There are some requirements for outhouses- assuming they are allowed. I'll see if I can dig them up, but on my hunting camp we had to accomodate requirements on distance from the cabin, self-closing door and (of all things!) toilet seat, and some others. Again. I'll see if I can find them. Can you do it yourself? Probably- all dependent on the how big a system you put in. We have a 1000 gallon concrete holding tank on our hunting cabin (way overkill, by the way). Due to it's size and weight we had it installed for us. But a smaller, lighter tank may be a different story.

optimistic Member	# Posted: 22 Mar 2012 08:54pm Reply PA_Bound - well the SEO (funny how close but yet so far is the term SEO from CEO... ;) ) was actually quite nice last time we spoke and agreed that I need a very small setup. What works in our advantage is the RCA. The way it is worded, they must allow us a much smaller holding tank because of the whole 'recreational usage'. I emailed the SEO, to have some things in writing, but I feel confident that I am on to something. The guy from DEP seems to know his stuff. He said that he owns a hunting cabin with some of his buddies. He mentioned that they keep a bucket next to the sink and when it get filled up they just toss it to the outhouse. I'll keep you posted as soon as I hear back. BTW - how are the inspection laws in PA? Can they just go on my property to inspect things around? like plumbing outside the cabin?

cabinbiscuits Member	# Posted: 23 Mar 2012 09:01am - Edited by: cabinbiscuits Reply Quoting: PA_Bound My experience working with the Township sewer officials has been less than satisfactory. It doesn't matter what question I ask or scenario I present, their answer always seem to be "you need a septic system". I don't think that's always true (as you may be learning), but I can't get them to consider other options. Often times government officials will tell you what their opinion or normal way of doing business is, and not necessarily what the law is. I have found this to be especially true with zoning officials who like to completely ignore the zoning ordinances for the municipalities (the actual law that they are supposed to operate under and make interpretations under) that they work for, and just tell you what they think is the way things should be. Or this is the way my boss tells me it is supposed to be. I love it when they tell you that you can always just appeal my decision, or apply for a variance, either of which will cost you at least another $500 or more. That and the Constitution are a couple of the reasons that I prefer the "Don't ask, Don't tell" approach. If that doesn't work, I've had them cite me in the past, and then kicked their butt all over the courtroom due to their ineptitude, incompetence and a poorly constructed zoning ordinance. I won the case, being cited cost me no money, I proved my points, and the Judge told the Township officials to take their zoning ordinance back to their board of supervisors and that they better not cite anyone else out of it until they got it straightened out. I just heard on the news yesterday where they threw a guy in jail for two days in Minnesota because he didn't get the stucco on the back of his house finished fast enough for the codes officials. Guess I better be careful if I ever move there though. Inspectors and codes officials are not gods although many of them think that they are because often times they have you by the balls, and they know it, especially if you are not familiar with the law and courtroom procedures and so on. The best you can hope for is a knowledgeable one who will help you, who will abide by the law as it is written, whether he/she likes it the way it is written or not, and will help you to work through doing things if it is something he/she might not be all that familiar with themselves. Oh and one that will admit when they don't know something and will research the answer instead of just taking the lazy way out and telling you, no you can't do that. Sorry for the rant, but the ever increasing theft of our freedom through regulations at every level of government for our "health and safety" is really getting on my nerves lately.

rafterman Member	# Posted: 23 Mar 2012 03:31pm Reply Quoting: cabinbiscuits I just heard on the news yesterday where they threw a guy in jail for two days in Minnesota because he didn't get the stucco on the back of his house finished fast enough for the codes officials. Well, the first notification to comply he had was back in the summer of 2007, so I'm guessing the project was started in 2006. They gave him 5 years to finish it before they turned it over to the court system and it was the judge that decided the warrant would be issued after not fining him but rather giving him another chance to finish it. I detest most codes as much as anyone (and very anti-govco in general), but if you willingly decide to live somewhere you need to either abide by them or get them changed. You choose to live in a nice home in a mostly affluent city, you need to keep your property up.

optimistic Member	# Posted: 23 Mar 2012 04:04pm Reply cabinbiscuits I am totally with you on this regulation insanity. What makes my blood boil is that most of them are only there to make money and not for the well being of the people. In nyc you are not allowed to use PVC piping in any property which has more than 2 residential units (85% of the city basically). They claim that it is a safety thing which is a bunch of bulls***... The real reason for it is that it is much cheaper to install PVC (less labor intensive) and the plumbers want to be able to charge big bucks. Disgusting! I was one quoted 30k for 4 days of plumbing work to connect one kitchen and bath. How is that for corruption? In regard to my case - I do have an update. I received a phone call from the SEO. He said that a privy will not be allowed. He quoted me this ordinance that says that holding tanks are not permitted. He got a bit annoyed when I asked him where I can find this ordinance - "you have to have a septic tank - PERIOD. There is no other option". Maybe to many people here this isn't a big deal as they do not mind shedding some $ for a septic system. But for me, spending 10k on a septic system is impossible. I found another parcel in NY today and I tried to see if there is any definitions for recreational cabins in NYS. There is! It is fairly new, and it has been challenged in court already, but if you have these 5 basic conditions: (i) is a one-story structure but may include a sleeping loft; (ii) is built on posts or piers and does not have a permanent foundation; (iii) is served by a sanitary pit privy or chemical toilet and does not have a conventional, on-site wastewater treatment system; (iv) does not have pressurized or indoor plumbing (this prohibition does not preclude a kitchen sink with appropriate grey water leach pit); and (v) is not connected to any public utilities (such as electric, phone, cable, water or sewer systems). GP2005G-4R Permit for Hunting and Fishing Cabins.pdf Then you can apply for a 'fishing and hunting cabin'. What I was not able to find so far is what can you build with this permit. As far as I can see, you do not need a septic but I might be wrong. I did call the SEO for the NY lot I found and she stated that I should submit to her my plan (she mentioned that it doesn't need to be architectural or very in-depth) and that I should state what I would like to have in it and so on - so she can review it and tell me if it is possible. Does anyone have any experience in making such plans? or any knowledge of how they are usually done?

Just Member	# Posted: 23 Mar 2012 04:47pm Reply make a drawing of the entire lot .give the location and dementions. draw in a floor plan of the cabin being of legal size .give a short dicription of the cabin complying with there definition's draw in the outhouse a 100 ft away from the cabin and send it in ..worth a shot !!

cabinbiscuits Member	# Posted: 23 Mar 2012 06:37pm Reply Quoting: rafterman but if you willingly decide to live somewhere you need to either abide by them or get them changed. You choose to live in a nice home in a mostly affluent city, you need to keep your property up. Ahh but there my friend is the rub. How can you say "if you willingly decide to live somewhere you need to either abide by them or get them changed." We all must live somewhere, and your chances of getting codes changed are about as good as the chance of an average farmer or blue collar man being elected president of these United States. It really doesn't matter any more if you live in "a mostly affluent city" or in the sticks, there is always someone these days who is looking to protect you from what they deem to be your own stupidity, or to protect their property values by telling you how your house or property should be maintained, colored, or kept and so on. See we used to have something called freedom in this country, however we've come so far away from that, we can't even see what it means to actually be free and self reliant. I'm sure that the pilgrims didn't have code's officials telling them how large their rafters had to be, or how much mud they had to pack between their logs in their cabins. I'm not sure how we ever made it, or how their property values didn't plummet. Personally, with millions of illegal aliens in this country running the streets freely, and billions upon billions of dollars worth of credit card and identity theft frauds occurring in this country annually, I just can't see the sense in putting a guy who didn't have the right kind of siding up on his house in jail for two days. I don't care if it took him 50 years to get up unpainted sheets of osb, the guy shouldn't be in jail. Rest assured, I'm sure that there was a complaining neighbor or neighbors, or an overzealous codes official involved. The guy had to be charged with a violation to end up in front of a judge in the first place. The way I see it, with freedom, if you want to protect your property value, then buy my property, and you can do with my property what you wish. Otherwise, if I'm paying the bills, I should be free to do as I please on my own property.

rafterman Member	# Posted: 23 Mar 2012 08:41pm Reply Quoting: cabinbiscuits The way I see it, with freedom, if you want to protect your property value, then buy my property, and you can do with my property what you wish. Otherwise, if I'm paying the bills, I should be free to do as I please on my own property. So there should be no lines drawn on acceptable/unacceptable ? Someone should be allowed to move into a small city lot and put 8 cars up on blocks in the front yard and have 20 dogs? I bet the main reason they originally bought the house is because they liked how nice the neighborhood looked. (He's in a metro area of 3mil and also only about 25 miles from 'the country' - there were plenty of choices). Yes, I think it was stupid that he ended up in jail, but I also think it's pretty stupid he moved into a nice neighborhood, left/made his house look like crap for over 5 years blowing off doing anything about it until there were finally consequences. I guess I just don't see a rule that requires actually having siding on a house in a nice neighborhood as overly oppressive, especially when they gave him 4+ years of warning/notices. We all give up pieces of our freedom with our choices in today's society. Moving into an established area, with established rules and codes is one of those times. And sorry, society has moved on. Trying to compare the time of the pilgrims to today doesn't work - it was a time when homes would stay in a family essentially forever and people had a better understanding of what it took to live day to day and survive. We have codes now because most people would have no clue what to look for/check when buying a house or having work done, and you sure can't trust anyone today to tell you the truth if they're selling. Codes are essentially insurance for both the current and future owners that something was done to some minimum standard. I'm not saying that today is better, it isn't. I'd much rather live in a time where one's own effort and ability was more greatly rewarded and people were more responsible for themselves and the consequences of their own actions.

jgiffi Member	# Posted: 23 Mar 2012 10:40pm Reply optimistic please give us an update when you find out if you can utilize the general permit. Correct me if I am wrong though, that is only good in the adirondack park and in a wildlife management area? It doesn't cover the entire state? I am located about an hour north of syracuse and i am trying to work with my code enforcement officer because they would like me to install a two hatch 1000 gallon tank for my 16x28 hunting camp. I found that if you pay the locals to perform the work the officer is extremely forgiving but if you try to perform the work yourself they can/will make it extremely challenging.

yankeesouth Member	# Posted: 24 Mar 2012 05:47pm Reply I will be curious as to how your situation turns out. My experience has been literally across the street, AKA one TWP to the next the so called rules change in PA. Many Many Many folks around my place have the don't ask don't tell systems and the TWP doesn't always "want" to know. However "if" they know they are obligated to investigate and abide by rules, laws, policiies, etc...

optimistic Member	# Posted: 24 Mar 2012 07:12pm Reply Yankeesouth, I know what you mean. This is what they force us to do. This way they have us by the bal** and if they decide to pounce on you... you might be in a whole lot of trouble. They can claim that you polluted the lake and responsible to clean it over the Clean Water Act which can easily run into the millions. So yes, most likely you will have a small cabin without permits for a very long time without any of these Domesday scenarios but most of those local governments are broke and issuing violations is a easy way to pay the bills. I hope all you guys have these cabins under LLC's. It's only a few hundreds to set it up and it ensures that if they do go after you - you will only lose the cabin and not your home and car. Even if I solve this entire issue with the permits and have a legitimate cabin - I will still have it under an LLC. I have the tax ID# of the lot and I will make phone calls on Tuesday to find out if this hunting cabin permit thing applies to it. The lot I'm looking at is over 5 acres but it is odd shaped - 150 by 1500 feet... Not sure if that will be wise to buy because it only leaves me about 50 feet from each side if I build it smack in the middle. Question - how deep should I go? I want to use it during winter.

PA_Bound Member	# Posted: 24 Mar 2012 07:58pm - Edited by: PA_Bound Reply I've been following this thread closely. It reads like your last interaction with the SEO mirrors my experiences (sorry to hear that, by the way). Your situation has prompted me to make a call to the local SEO on my situation however. When I had my perc tests and system design done, the design would accomodate a 3-bedroom, full time use, house, with cost estimates >$20K to install. Now that I've settled for a ~500sqft, part-time use cabin, I wonder if they'll relax those requirements (and costs!) and at least let me get away with a smallier system? I'll let you know what they have to say about that. Regarding your question on where to build, a question to consider is how close your neighbors are on each side? Are their lots only 150' wide also, such that if they built in the middle of their properties you would only be 150' apart? If that's the case you may want to build deeper or shallower to increase those distances. If that is not a consideration, you may want to build deep enough to be well off the road, but not so deep that you can't keep the road open in the winter.

optimistic Member	# Posted: 24 Mar 2012 08:15pm Reply Great advice PA! I will have to ask the seller about the other lots but I believe she said that a farmer once owned it and he divided it into five 5.25 acre lots and she bought one. In the google maps images it is surrounded buy wood and there are barely any houses around. I also see some crop fields around. For now and for the next few years it won't have any neighbors but I always plan ahead. How much is an ideal distance from the neighbors in you opinion? In regard to your situation, if you are going after that RCA then you can really push them to allow you to install a much smaller system per the requirements of the RCA of recreational usage. I told them that I will only use it one every two weeks the most, which is true and he agreed that it is quite nothing. Now that i think about it, you can even say (over the phone and not in writing) that you will use it once a month or so to really make him let you have a tiny system.. No way in hell he can enforce the whole recreational used thing. You should also call the EPA and talk to them because they might give you ideas, like they gave me, so you can then go back and speak with the SEO with some information from 'above'.

trollbridge Member	# Posted: 24 Mar 2012 11:02pm Reply Optimistic and PA_Bound......just read through this and feel bad for the two of you and I hope you get the answers you need-we went through this too in Northern Wisconsin. What I was always amazed by was the fact that everybody seems to have a small recreational cabin here but when we tried to get the information on what is required to meet code it was as if we were the first people ever to want to build a cabin!!!! Like it was all new to the zoning fools!!! I think they just like to say "no" to everything and they purposely give people the run around in hopes that they end up doing way more than they need to. As it turns out we ended up with a 300 gallon holding tank in the outhouse with the toilet seat built right in....never did need the 500.00 perk test they originally said was required and the outhouse is 50 feet from the cabin which was the minimum distance allowed...so it is convenient to get to it...except during the night when I instead stumble my way to the "bucket with a toilet seat" that sits in the mudroom of our cabin!

PA_Bound Member	# Posted: 25 Mar 2012 08:45am Reply Opti, I think everyone on this forum will probably have a different opinon on "how close is too close?". It really depends on how much (if any) interaction you want to have with your neighbors, what you want to be able to do around your cabin and, to a large degree, what type of neighbors you have. Having a cabin full of hard drinkin', all-night partiers right next door may not sound too appealing- unless your also a hard drinkin' all-night partier in which case it could be a blast! Probably most will say that they really don't want to see or hear their neighbors. In remote areas having neighbors closer can be good for cabin security, unless they're the hooligans breaking in. See what I mean? Me personally, I don't mind seeing my neighbors but I don't want to hear them. So I want to be out of ear-shot.

yankeesouth Member	# Posted: 26 Mar 2012 12:50pm - Edited by: yankeesouth Reply Opti and PA Below is/are guidelines copied from PA Code....AKA PA Law regarding composting toilets. TWP ordinances, as far as I know, cannot supercede PA Code. Check out part (d). Interesting?!?!?!? § 73.65. Recycling toilet, incinerating toilet or composting toilet. (a) Recycling, incinerating and composting toilets shall bear the seal of the NSF indicating testing and approval by that agency under Standard No. 41. (b) The device utilized shall meet the installation specifications of the manufacturer and shall be operated and maintained in a manner that will preclude any potential pollution or health hazards. (c) When the installation of a recycling toilet, incinerating toilet or composting toilet is proposed for a new residence or establishment, an onlot sewage system or other approved method of sewage disposal shall be provided for treatment of washwater or excess liquid from the unit, except as provided in subsection (e). Both sewage disposal facilities shall be included under one permit. (d) When the installation of a recycling toilet, incinerating toilet, composting toilet or another type of water conservation device is proposed for an existing residence or facility and no alteration of the onlot system is proposed, a permit is not required. (e) When a composting toilet or incinerating toilet is proposed for installation on a lot meeting the requirements of § 71.63 (relating to retaining tanks), it shall be deemed equivalent to and permitted as a privy. The device shall be operated and maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's specifications. Discharges of liquids from these units, except to onlot sewage systems meeting the requirements of this part or other method of sewage disposal approved under this chapter or approved by the Department are prohibited.

optimistic Member	# Posted: 28 Mar 2012 08:47pm Reply I will finally have time tomorrow to make some phone calls. I am really amazed by the perfect definition, at least for me, at that Adirondack Hunting and Fishing bulletin. Google it and you will see what I am talking about. First I thought that it is only in that area but according to NYState building code enforcers it is for the entire state. Hopefully I will find out more info tomorrow.

millerke	# Posted: 12 Apr 2012 03:53pm Reply According to the Health Department for Carroll County, Ohio - when I asked about installing a Central Composting Toilet system in my home or Cabin. "We can't regulate indoor plumbing." So if a composting toilet system is indoor plumbing, an attached greywater greenhouse with no external plumbing doesn't fall under their regulations either. Either you can regulate indoor plumbing or you can't. You can't pick and choose what systems you can or can't allow. This whole scam is about generating revenue and protecting Insurance Companies under Color of Insurance Law. These are the areas you must complain about in Court. Ask for a Jury Trial w/o getting a Lawyer. Courts love to have you presented by an attorney. They exercise "Parens Patriae" on you as someone who can't manage his/her affairs. Explain to a jury about what you are doing. If you have it installed demand that they be present to see your system in operation. I am putting in a Central Composting System with attached greywater greenhouse. Already spoke with expert from Clivus Mulstrum about it. He stated I wouldn't discharge enough water on a daily basis for the plants in a 15'x30' attached greenhouse. I would have to use additional water. So this is what they want, they want all of us to put in expensive systems for a number of reasons, and it really has nothing to do with Public Safety. 1. Charge you expensive fees to get their permission to do something on land you own or purchased. 2. Protect Septic Installers/Contractors for their money they get. 3. Increase the value of your property for Property tax purposes. 4. And make it so they can have you reinstall a newer system later 5. Or force you to hook up to their proposed water/sewage system and make you pay for it. These corrupt officials are "Domestic Enemies" of the Constitution and our Natural Rights. They need to be called that in front of a jury. Just hope you make sure you have veterans in the courtroom. I will!

millerke Member	# Posted: 28 Apr 2012 05:31pm Reply Anyway, an update. Driveway cleared and culvert in place. waiting on settling for gravel and will be getting ready for measuring and putting in posts. Screw the System. It's corrupt. If your building in the country on your own property, and not harming others than do what you want. You have a Right to obtain property and enjoyable use of property. Not Tyranny.

MtnDon Member	# Posted: 28 Apr 2012 06:10pm - Edited by: MtnDon Reply Quoting: millerke Screw the System. It's corrupt. If your building in the country on your own property, and not harming others than do what you want. You have a Right to obtain property and enjoyable use of property. The key to that argument is how do you know that you will not harm someone else with something you do? Even if today you have no immediate neighbors who's to say there won't be neighbors in a year or two or whatever? We had no neighbors for a mile 27 years ago when we bought/built. Too bad we couldn't buy the whole desert or at least 600 acres of it. Today we have neighbors close by; close enough that if my septic system turned bad I could pollute the other guys well. Just one example. Besides, the constitution gives the states the right to regulate anything that is not specified in the federal constitution. No?

millerke Member	# Posted: 28 Apr 2012 09:14pm Reply First you have to prove I'm harming you or anyone else! I am installing a system that other Americans in the East Coast and West Coast of this Country have already put in place. And have proven they work. And, No. The constitution doesn't allow the States to regulate anything they want. Maybe you need to read the 14th Amendment. Or The Civil Rights Laws on Conspiracy to Deprive one of Rights under Color of Law. Secondly, All powers not delegated by the Constitution are reserved to the States, and to the people. - 10th Amendment All Rights not enumerated shall not be denied nor disparaged of the people - 9th Amendment. Also Your Right to Life, Liberty or Property shall not be violated except under due process of law, nor shall property be taken without just compensation. Now I have almost 17 acres. I purchased to get away from people like you. I spent 20 years defending this country and all of your freedoms. Apparently, you can't respect mine. For your understanding - "I don't like Domestic Enemies." I'd rather shoot them.

fred	# Posted: 29 Apr 2012 01:59am Reply Pretty harsh words. Sounds like your anger towards the authorities (most of us have probably have a similar viewpoint) has been displaced at us. I'm glad that you live in Ohio. Please feel free to stay there.

PA_Bound Member	# Posted: 29 Apr 2012 08:45am - Edited by: PA_Bound Reply Whoa there, Millerke... I think you need to rein in the attitude a wee bit. MtnDon just presented a position a bit contrary to yours, but there was no disrespect in his words. That's how we do things here. Your response crossed the line and, frankly, became a bit disrespectful of him. You should apologize.

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