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stitch
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2012 03:08am
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First of all I have been lurking at this site for some time. I we have
been thinking about our 1st build for some time now and this spring will be the time for the start of the "cabin build" neaither of us have built much more then a ice house so we have some idea of how to build a little something to spend weekends in
My buddy and I bought 80 acres in northern MN a couple of years ago as a place to hunt and get away from the everyday life. The property is very remote with only a small easement which is big enough for a atv or snowmobile. Which is part of the reason we bought the land. With limited access as far as bringing materials in and setting up a base camp will only be done with atv's or snowmobiles. We would like to get a good chunk of the materials in this winter/spring via atv. At first we where just going to build a small 10x12 shed that would have a couple bunks and a wood stove. Now that we have given it more thought we would like to build a 16x24 shed (if you wanna call it that)
The only reason on making it much bigger is because as our families grow we wanna have room for more then 4 people for a weekend up north. With the hard to reach location of building this shack what is the best type of foundation to use? We are trying to keep the cost down so it doesn't get the foot down from the better half's if you know what I mean.
Thanks for the help
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Just
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2012 09:26am
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Look around ,seewhats on the site that u could use . what would a settiler have used 200 years ago ? is there any bedrook, gravel,large bolders?even sand for making morter ..any standing timber? I'm sure others hear have ideas ,lets hear them !!!
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trollbridge
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2012 09:52am
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No ideas for a foundation here~others here are waaaaaaaayyyy more knowledgeable than I on that. I wanted to say welcome though and am wondering where in northern Mn. you own land?
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Rifraf
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2012 12:01pm
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I am as green as anyone here, but my first thought was to use a hand post hole digger and plunk down some piers with quick crete, you can haul 4x4 or 6x6 piers up there on an atv with trailer, and several bags of cement (and several 1 gallon jugs of water to mix the quick crete or cement with unless you have a nearby pond or stream)
You could have your piers placed in a day and start building on those once the cement cures. Hand sawing 6x6 would be a pain but doable.
Not sure how many piers you would need, ive head of some folks using the inch to foot thing.. meaning if they use 6x6 piers then they space them 6 feet apart, 4x4 then 4 feet apart.. Please dont take my word on that its hearsay and im not sure if its sound advice, but something you can look up if you want to.
Good luck, and post some pics when you get things going !
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2012 01:16pm
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We have a shack in the iron range of northern mn and just have it on skids. It has worked out well, but its a 16x16 building. You could also make two smaller buildings and have 1 as bunk house seperate as the need becomes more evident. With the limitations on getting things into the property it sounds like it would be good to have a work in progress approach anyway.
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exsailor
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2012 02:59pm
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If you decide to set piers, use the dry set method. Dig your holes put a couple inches of gravel in the base of your hole, and tamp it down. This insures the bottom of your post isn't set on the ground which would speed up rot. For the dry set put dry Quickcrete around the post and tamp it in as you would dirt. I would have the post braced square, just to keep things right. You can then add the water or let the ground moisture set the quickcrete. You get less pull away from the post this way as the concrete cures.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2012 03:57pm
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The type of foundation is largely determined by the soil type. How much load (PSI) can the soil safely support? How deep/shallow is the water table? Does the soil drain well or does it become saturated at times? Some answers to these questions can be found by looking at what others have successfully used in the area. The Web Soil Survey can be useful in many parts of the country. In some areas the soil is too variable and there is no information; in that case local expertise is required, sometimes a geotech or soils engineer.
In almost all cases the piers should have a poured concrete footing reinforced with rebar. This is to help spread the load out and eliminate settling;16 x 16 x 8 inches thick is usually a safe size. If you use proper pressure treated foundation grade piers they will not rot out.
How deep to dig the pier holes will vary with the local frost depth. The bottom of the concrete footer must be below that level.
The spacing of the piers depends on the load bearing ability of the soil as well as the size of the beam the piers are supporting.
Piers must also be properly braced against lateral movement. It is poor design to rely on the ground to be the main resisting element to lateral movement. If the ground gets too wet its ability to restrain lateral movement goes way down.
Piers with larger cross sections resist lateral movement better. IE, a 6x6 is better than a 4x4; an 8x8 is better than a 6x6.
You don't need concrete around a pier. Ram the dirt that was dug out of the hole back in layers. A steel digging bar with a mushroom head is ideal for this. If anyone insists on using concrete around a pier it is much better to mix it with the proper amount of water and then fill the space around the pier. Dry setting will seldom achieve the same strength and if you go to the expense of buying concrete mix it may as well be properly mixed, IMO.
The size of the beams that the piers will support will depend on pier spacing, 1 story vs 2 story or loft, snow load and any unusual interior loads (water bed, large cast iron stove, for example.
Even if building in an area where there will be no building inspections, no codes to be met, it can be informative to read/study up on what the code books state on matters such as floor and roof joists, number of nails for different connections and so on. There are some Online Code Resources available.
Lastly I'll say (my opinion) that a neophyte builder should begin the process with a complete set of plans before moving the first shovel of dirt. Know what is to be built, what the parts are and how they will go together.
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fpw
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2012 04:41pm
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My cabin is up near Hinckley, MN. To get below the frost line you have to dig down past 42 inches. And, my cabin is only accessible by foot or ATV. I dug 15 holes, filled them with rebar, sack-crete, and rock. Then, set stumps on the footings, cut the stumps off level, and built the joist system.
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fpw
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2012 04:45pm
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My cabin is up near Hinckley, MN. To get below the frost line you have to dig down past 42 inches. And, my cabin is only accessible by foot or ATV. I dug 15 holes, filled them with rebar, sack-crete, and rock. Then, set stumps on the footings, cut the stumps off level, and built the joist system.
Plan? I would never use a plan. However, that method has it's downside, as in the front door of my cabin is sized for a hobbit (long story).
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Martian
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2012 06:01pm
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How long do you want this cabin to last, and how much fiddling are you willing to do to relevel it every so often? A lot of us on here have a tendency to overbuild. We build our cabins to last forever; or at least, our lifetimes. But if you want a 10 year cabin, quick, then put it on skids. Build/precut everything you can at home. If you use screws, you could literally build it, then take it apart for transport to your site.
Tom
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adakseabee
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2012 09:55pm
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Stitch,
If you are planning on a building as large as 16x24, I would not recommend building it on skids. I would use posts, either 4x6 or 6x6 or 8x8, spaced dependent on the number of posts you plan on using, their size in cross-section, and the live and dead loads on them from the building. Mtn Don makes an excellent point in ensuring that the posts are rated for foundation use, if the posts are in contact with the ground. Such posts may not be available in your area or at much greater cost. An alternative is to use post protectors which prevent soil to wood and concrete to wood contact. Post protectors slide over the post, protecting from moisture and insects from the footer to the floor joists, enabling one to use posts that are rated for something less than foundation use, therefore, cheaper. An additional advantage in using post protectors is that they are environmentally safe, preventing chemical leaching from pressure treated posts into soil and ground water. Go to www.postprotector.com for details on this product. I was going to use them for my cabin, but decided to put it on doubled (vertically) 6x6 skids over a 12" bed of crushed stone since I downsized my design to a 10x14 cabin. My local lumber yard did not stock them, but would order them for me. Cost was very reasonable.
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DennB
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# Posted: 10 Jan 2012 07:54pm - Edited by: DennB
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I agree with those who recommended against a skid foundation for a 16 x 24, but it is a great system for a smaller cabin. Use only structural 6x6's that are pressure treated for ground contact. I wouldn't even use 4x4 or 4x6's on any size shed; the building will sit too close to the ground for ventilation purposes (to keep the underside dry). Use hardware cloth to cover the open ends and bury it into the ground to keep the critters out from underneath.
I would also recommend placing the building on a high area and digging 12 - 16" deep pitched trenches filled with packed gravel under the skids. Surround the gravel with commercial landscape fabric to keep them from filling with dirt and dig 4 to 6" gravel-filled drainage trenches leading away down hill from the original. This will not only drain water away from the cabin, it will prevent most heaving and make your skids last longer. The building will ride out the freeze and thaw cycles without the labor of piers. If the skids ever need to be replaced, the building can be jacked up and new can be attached.
I in fact used this method a few years ago to save a 10 x 12 cabin that my father and grandfather built 35 years ago. The floor, bottom plate and bottom 12" of siding needed to be replaced since the building was sitting on the ground (originally on blocks), but amazingly the studs, repurposed from building crates of the time, were in darn good condition. I raised the building on the studs with two jacks moving back and forth around the stucture. Eventually, I was able to replace the bottom plate, get the 6x6 skids into place and build a simple deck type foundation on top of them. This time around, I had the benefit of pressure treated lumber. It took hours of planning how to do it, but I was able to build underneath the existing cabin. If it ever needs leveling, I will jack and place more gravel under the low end.
The cost for each 6 x 6 x 12' was around $30. I just needed to level two solid skids instead of 9 or so piers. Digging was limited to a shallow trench, instead of narrow holes four feet straight down. No mixing or hauling of water or cement. The skids slid off the trailer and I just moved one end at a time to get them in place. I was able to retrofit the foundation without the help of anyone else.
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Ravens3
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# Posted: 11 Jan 2012 09:08am
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Some good suggestions above, We built a 20'X30' cabin a number of years ago, everything had to go in by sled or wagon. We found a location where bed rock wasn't too far down for all but 3 support posts. The location had a slight slope, but we exposed the bed rock and used stones to build most of our piers. Thos that we couldn't dry fit, we used motar to hold together. For the 3 that bed rock wasn't available for, we formed up 2'X2' sqaures with 2"X4"s and poured a pad, then used stone on one and cedar posts on the other two to reach. We spent 4 weekends getting materials in one winter, built the floor that summer, then 8 trips in the following winter brought in the rest of the materials which allowed us to complete the cabin the second summer. we've since added some porches and a propane fridge. Running water is still us "running" to the creek and back, but some day... The suggestion above about look around for building materials is the best bet. Check out the lay of the land, and look for building materials on hand. Local stone can be used for a lot, as can logs. Good luck with your project.
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stitch
Member
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# Posted: 14 Jan 2012 03:05am
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Thanks everyone for there help and idea's! Since I posted the 1st time some more thoughts have went it to the plan. We are going to go with a 16x16 shed with a loft. When and if we run out of room we will look building a bunk house or adding on a little addition for a "bunk room"
I looked at the Web Soil Survey site and no information on the soil for the area. The plan of attack to to do a post foundation. Dig past the frost line and put in a concret pad and then set the treated 6x6 posts on them, then back fill. I do know that the area is pretty rocky so if we dig a hole and can't get past a rock then we will call it good? Will that work?
FPW how close are you Hinckley, MN? The building site is between Hinckley and Cloverdale. We have a family cabin east of Beroun. It's been in the family for 30yrs and going strong! The land was too good of a deal to pass up! Its not too far up north but far eneogh that I can get away from the everyday city life. Plus its only a short drive from home!
It's been a warm winter but we are looking to get up in March and pick a spot in the woods that we can start the clearing to build the shed! Not looking at cutting down tons of trees but enough that we don't have to worry too much unless we get another wind storm like we did this summer:)
It might seem a little unreal but after talking around to friends and family they have said once the posts are in the ground the floor, framing, roof and sealed in could all be done over a weekend:)... Just need to get planning and get the matrials on site while everything is froze. Once the thaw comes it can be a challenge in its self getting back. I will make sure to post pics as the project comes to life!!!
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fpw
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# Posted: 14 Jan 2012 09:47am
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Stitch,
My cabin the Stump Ranch is near your. I am over east of St. Croix State Park, a mile or two north of 48.
Info on my place is at www.peelinglogs.blogspot.com
Jon
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