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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 30 Dec 2011 10:24pm
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OK, that means "Log Home Builders Association", loghomebuilders.org
I want to build my final home out of logs on my 20 acres. I have researched the heck out if it and this class and lifetime membership seems to be just the ticket. The guy who started it way back was named Skip Ellsworth. He did this right in my state and area. He retired to the Philippines and passes away. I understand and his son has taken over and doing it in Vegas now.
I think I'm going to be at the next class. I have 5 people who I know want to go.
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ErinsMom
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# Posted: 31 Dec 2011 02:06pm
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I had looked at this before. My problem would be getting the logs.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 31 Dec 2011 08:40pm
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That is part of the seminar. They teach you how to get them for next to nothing from the federal land, ie National Forest.
Looks like they will have a class in March and again in May. I'm going to attend the March class.
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naturelover66
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# Posted: 31 Dec 2011 08:46pm
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Vegas huh?
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 31 Dec 2011 09:00pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Yeah, I'm no gambler or into the night life. So I will be confined to the motel, be it sleeping, class or eating. Shuttle will take me from and to the airport. Should be easy. Its been Harrahs and Planet Hollywood in the past, but they are negotiating it at Ballys. They will inform me where and then i make reservations and grab my tickets.
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Nirky
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# Posted: 31 Dec 2011 09:11pm
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LHBA member here. Class is highly recommended, I envy you. I had to miss the Sunday session so I'm only half-schooled! Will take the class again when I have land and the logs are drying.
Getting home logs from federal land is one way. The easier way...you will learn in the class. ;)
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 31 Dec 2011 09:14pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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You probably know there is some controversy between builders using more traditional methods and the Ellsworth butt and pass style. I know a guy in VA who has built traditional style log homes, many with the squared timbers that are common in VA and surrounding states, as well as conventional stick building. The Ellsworth method achieves their claims of no settling by drilling holes through the logs at an angle, then driving rebar through the layers. They do that at several points along each wall. Since the rebar is installed at diverging angles there can be no settling. The logs themselves can still shrink some, but they can't move. The spaces are then chinked with mortar. There is also controversy between the use of a historic lime based chink vs modern portland cement based mortar chinks and rot. The Ellsworth method does seem to have followers, but also many detractors from those who advocate, teach and build more conventional log construction styles.
Just thought I'd throw that into the mix.
Are you planning a full time residence? Logs are not an ideal type of construction, no matter how they are put together, if the building is to see occasional use, like on weekends. The log mass takes too long to warm and the weekend may be over before the interior is truly comfortable.
Here's another style of "log-look" construction. It's a post and beam with cut timber wall infills. Strong structure with clearly defined load paths.
Post and beam log-look 1
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Post and beam log-look 2
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Nirky
Member
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# Posted: 31 Dec 2011 09:50pm
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MtnDon you mention "controversy" between some proponents of butt & pass log home construction and proponents of some other types of log construction, but then in your example of "controversy" admit that there is no settling in this type of butt & pass construction. So exactly where is controversy? Certainly different building methods have both pros & cons...and you have just cited a "pro" for butt & pass.
Is there a "controversy" over some preferring one type of chinking over another? Isn't that really an exaggeration?
Regarding higher log mass taking longer to warm up, that is just the simple physics of thermal mass. The obvious upside is it takes longer to cool, keeping those inside toasty. For a weekend cabin this may be a con, but as you read, MDT has in mind a "final home" for his 20 acres.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 1 Jan 2012 12:55am - Edited by: MtnDon
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I thought it over for a day before saying anything. Perhaps I should have remained silent. My effort to simply raise a level of awareness seems to have caused someone to take offense.
I didn't want to open a can of worms, didn't want to get into a I'm right, you're wrong sort of flame war. All I wanted to do was to encourage research into methods before committing large sums of money. I wasn't planning on entering into a drawn out pros/cons discussion. There are several forums where log builders have discussed and can discuss different methods. Forum sites that are not necessarily sponsored by any company or group involved in promoting any particular method. That's all I'm going to say about the matter.
I am very familiar with thermal mass, both the advantages and the disadvantages of a building with high mass. Sometimes I bring up a factor like I did with thermal mass as a general point. Yes, I know it sounds like this will be a full time residence. However, many readers of this topic, both today and months down the road, will be looking to build a part time recreational residence. My comments are aimed at them as much as toyota_mdt_tech. Not everyone planning and building may think of the pros and cons of thermal mass.
There is a quite nice log cabin near us that was completed a year ago. The owner was quite surprised at how long it took their log cabin to warm up and be comfortable when they snowshoed in for their first winter weekend.
That's all, just a kind of a general note to try and help out some unknown reader in the future. I believe that most people welcome that.
To digress a bit. At present there is in another topic a detail that I would like to mention; criticize. My comment would be aimed more at future builders than as a criticism of the build featured in that topic. I know many take a lot of what they see on internet forums as gospel truth; it's not always so. But, because of past experience I am relatively certain the owner/builder would similarly take offense, I've been debating whether or not I should make mention. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. For now I'm going to go back to my book and wait for the "ball to drop" in my time zone.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 1 Jan 2012 12:54pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Don, I appreciate your comments. I have been a fan of log homes for years, wife loves them, we have always wanted to have one of our own. I have been doing research on them for years also. As a teenager, my dad and I build a small log home (was actually a large storage shed) and we did the saddle notch, fitted them tight (minimal chinking, we did use cedar bark for chinking) and spiked each log together along the way. We used all native materials, stones for foundation, cedar logs to make our own shakes for the roof. We did buy some plywood for the floor and a salvaged door and window. Made the woodstove even. Long since moved away, the little cabin still stands today, rock solid. With he exception of the plywood on the floor, it cost us nothing.
Anyway, I'm going to attend this class just for more experience. I have always liked the saddle notch, but like the idea of simplicity on the butt/pass method. I remember it took so long to fit each log on that storage shed, ie the corners and making them fit tight to each other. Anyway Don, please dont be discouraged on your input. I'm taking it all in, this class will be just more information I will absorb and determine the final route. I want to also pick up info on other parts of the building, ie best way to run wire concealed, how do they do the roof, vaulted and insulated, fitting doors , inner support poles etc.
Has anyone in here built a log home yet? If so,m did you use milled logs (Skip calls them dowel pin homes) from a kit or actual round logs?
I love the round logs, the knot bumps, varying diameters etc gives them character.
Anyway Don, dont be discouraged, I appreciate all input.
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fpw
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# Posted: 1 Jan 2012 01:07pm - Edited by: fpw
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I built a log cabin. Cut down the trees and peeled the logs. Hand-scribed construction. This route takes a great deal of time.
I've seen a number of photos of the butt and pass construction you mention. If it were me, I would saddle notch and chink round logs rather than butt and pass. This method is pretty quick (fit up is easy, no messing with lateral groove). And,notching the corners gives you a little better stability as compare to drilling and pegging with rebar.
Another method that is quicker is dovetail and chink rough sawn timbers.
Settling is not a big deal, you just need to account for it and key the windows and doors. Here is an example:
http://peelinglogs.blogspot.com/2010/11/log-cabin-window-installation.html
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Nirky
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# Posted: 1 Jan 2012 02:04pm - Edited by: Nirky
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Here is one of the many examples of LHBA student-built butt & pass log homes, this one in Cle Elum, WA.
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 1 Jan 2012 05:26pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Nirky, a co worker of mine knows J e f f C o o l e y, a member of the LHBA personally. He built one for 60K, sold it for almost 500K.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 1 Jan 2012 05:49pm
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Nice fpw, especially like the dovetails on the shed (shed?)
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Nirky
Member
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# Posted: 1 Jan 2012 07:10pm
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech He built one for 60K, sold it for almost 500K.
Yes MDT I believe it; even now in a bad market like we currently have it's very possible to build/sell for 10-15 years then retire. They will discuss this at the class.
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CabinBuilder
Admin
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2012 06:12pm
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech He built one for 60K, sold it for almost 500K.
I assume 500K includes price of the land...
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Nirky
Member
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2012 06:32pm
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Quoting: CabinBuilder I assume 500K includes price of the land...
I'm assuming that also; still, guessing his capital gain or net profit would be $200k-$250k+. Not bad for a year or so of heavy labor. Nice work if you can find it and know how to do it. Hence, the class.
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2012 07:10pm
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I'm certainly not in i t for the money, I'm in it so I can build my own retirement home. I've done a stick framed cabin already (have the full story with pix here) so I have that down to a science, and I can still do a stick built of needed, but the wife and I would really love to have a log home. I will see how much is involved and decide if I will tackle or or go stick. Mine will be a single level rambler, 24X34, maybe 28X32, something in that size, detached garage/shop.
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Malamte
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2012 12:40am
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I love log also. The butt and pass doesn't interest me for a number of reasons, esthetics partly, and the true beauty of notched corners. Log building is the rocket scince that some seem to think it is. Most older palces werent built by top secret uber-craftsmen, they were often built by people that didnt know a lot, and copied whatever others in the area were building. I've heard some like the butt and apps because it didnt invovle the dufficult nitching of corners. I've built several cabins, and didn't find it at all mysterious or difficult. Yes, it takes more time, but I think the result is absolutley worth it. If one wants to build and sell cabins, a handbuilt or even milled log cabin would be worth more than a butt and pass in my estimation, (or check with an home inspector that's familiar with log ouses and various types)I wouldn't buy a butt and pass in any event, they simply look like something that was built in the most hasty way, with not much interest in craftsmanship. Just my 2 cents.
Dealing with settling isn't at all hard to do. Wiring in full round hand built type is also pretty simple.
I looked at the site of the assn. They want an agreement that you won't reveal their methods to anyone, and you have to agree to pay a penalty of 50k if you reveal the secrets to take their course. Sounds a bit out there to me, but to each their own. They also don't want anyone that's ever build with logs in any other method, saying you're lost or already ruined or some such, and if you are a building inspector, (who they term "the enemy"), they don't want you taking any of their courses. Huh?
You can likely take classes for standard building methods in various places, tho I simply read a couple books, looked at a couple old ones around the area, and built a cabin for the first one. Never even had any plans, just an idea in my head of what I wanted.
I'm not sure why it's a secret how to get logs, it isn't tied to the method of how you build. Sort of sounds like paying for info on how to get free things.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2012 01:56am - Edited by: MtnDon
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Re the LHBA: Well stated.
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Malamute
Member
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2012 09:39pm
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Was going to try to edit all my spelling mistakes, but I guess I waited too long. Also was going to fix the misspelling of "....Log building is not the rocket science that many seem to think it is..."
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2012 10:25pm
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Malamute, I have already built a log cabin, it was a storage but the size of a small cabin. We did the saddle notch. It wasnt hard, but was very labor intensive. We hand peeled all the logs with a draw knife. Fitting it all tight was a chore. It took us an entire summer to get it done and it was in our yard. I'm currently 310 miles from my property now. But will probably be close to retiring when I decide to tackle it if I even do a log home. The idea behind the entire class for me is to pick up info. They have a method that is supposed to make it simple and go relatively quick. Once i have a dried in shell, I can take my time, tinker, then decorate.
Something else i thought about on the butt/pass method was to fit a log end into the opening that sticks out, pin it in place and chink it in.
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fpw
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2012 07:26pm - Edited by: fpw
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As mentioned by a couple others, Log Home Builders Association is an interesting bunch. I managed to get banned from the public section of their forum by posting an article suggesting that log builders really need to think for themselves.
As you can see, I am not so sure about this organization.
However, I do agree with toyota_mdt_tech in that the more you know, the better off you are. I am always trying to learn.
I have never taken a LHBA class; however, I've taken many log, timber frame, and rigging classes. In every case, the class has been on a site where you practice with chisel, saw, and rigging. I don't think I would pay for class in Las Vegas.
toyota_mdt_tech there are many ways to fit up a short log to your building. This skill is critical for all types of building as it allows the builders to make use of shorter pieces or cut logs that are bowed to make them useful. If you need info on this or any other aspect of log building or timer-frame construction, email me at fredrickpwanker@gmail.com and I will get you hooked up with some direction or photos.
Jon
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ErinsMom
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2012 07:54pm
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MtnDon,
Not that my opnion matters, but, I always find your comments informative and well thought out. "fair and balanced"
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Nirky
Member
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2012 09:52pm
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I think the best indicators of a class' worth is how classmates feel about it afterwards and over time. Do they feel that the class was a waste of time & money, or do they think it was worthwhile and put the ideas and techniques taught to good use?
As the only qualified person in this small cabin forum so far to answer this thread's original question, and even though I myself haven't yet build my log home, I'd recommend the LHBA class without reservations. I have NO regrets for spending $550 (in '05) for a weekend's worth of valuable information. I do hear some negative chatter from a few who haven;t taken the class and attempt to cast a negative light on the LHBA, from their membership restrictions to building technique. But interestingly, I've not heard anything negative from fellow class participants, those that have actually taken the class. That to me speaks volumes.
The University of Washington's Experimental College offered this same course for over 25 consecutive years, taught by Skip and his students. UW thought it was chalk full of good ideas. I'd have to agree.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2012 10:03pm
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The LHBA rules of admission to their classes also register sore points with me. So what if someone has already built started a log cabin? So what if they are somehow connected with permitting and inspection? There's simply something about those rules that troubles me. That's like someone telling I can't take their cooking class because I once fried some bacon and eggs.
In addition I've had a few discourses with graduates of that butt&pass school and have found them to be closed minded when it comes to all the more traditional styles of log construction.
If they are so sure their method is the best why block out anyone who has tried other methods? Is it that anyone with any other experience is too difficult to brainwash?
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Artmodels
Member
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# Posted: 26 Oct 2022 11:14am - Edited by: Artmodels
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Put enough, large enough rebar in and you do not need to angle the rebar. The ribbed portion of the rebar acts as a lock the wood shrinks onto.
When first putting our logs on, we misplaced one of the logs over 8 inches and put one rebar through before we discovered our mistake, and used a rough terrain forklift to try to separate the 2 logs. Couldn' t do it, bent one of the forks too.
We are using 30 inch long #8 rebar, spaced about 14" apart, spiked straight vertically, every course. So if you were to make an x-ray image of the walls, every 6 inches or so, there is a 1" rebar running vertically. We have to use a power sledgehammer to drive rebar in pre drilled 7/8" holes through the logs. Each drive takes about 3 minutes.The log courses I cut to 16.5" tall. Most logs are between 3 feet wide to 2 feet wide(getting smaller going up) One course spikes straight line down center of log, next course layer spikes are alternated 3" off center, in a zigzag pattern so you don't hit the lower spikes.
We put the lowest courses on 2 years ago, each log (using mostly jeffrey pine we cut ourselves) shrinks a little differently, so the gaps that appeared between courses vary in thickness up to about an inch. There is calculated about 3500 pounds of weight on each rebar holding up the bottom courses of logs. Our highest logs are about 26 feet above foundation.
You really do not need to go angled with the rebar.
We have used 382 18' to 30' long logs for the castle build so far.
Recently, we talked with a random couple who were up skiing for the weekend and found out from someone in town (Big Bear Ca) what we are building. They came by our castle build to see another "butt and pass" home before they built their own. They said they had attended the Vegas LHBA course in prep for building their own cabin in montana. They taught all good things to know, but their nda agreements are solely to try to keep uninformed newbies to pay for keeping their seminar business bringing in $. They also actively shun anyone who does their own better butt and pass style, only interested in selling seminars to make money. I know, as a couple of years ago sent an email to their info site, with pics of our build, and got literally "never contact me again, or I will sue you" nasty voicemail claiming I "stole" his proprietary methods. Which is a joke as the origins of this type of construction originated with Santa Fe railroad engineers when they hit the rocky mountains to build giant retaining caissons to fill with rubble rock, as platforms to build their million pound trestles on, before Mr "Butt n Pass" was even born. It's a shame, as cult mind control techniques to try to keep power to make money off of newbies ends up only delegitimizing their companies good info message
Everything on our castle I and my wife have built by hand, and only the two of us, along with an antique crane are doing it. Poured the foundation 4 years ago. It is 4100 sqft of area, with a 400 sqft flat useable victorian style roof. The top turret finial will be 68" tall.
Oh, and the "easier way" to get logs for FREE! is to contact all the tree cutting companies in your area to drop off the logs closer at your milling staging area, as it costs them less for driver time and diesel if they don't have to drive an hour away to dump. Also, talk to any commercial log truckers hauling cut logs they are taking to the chippers, and voila, for a case of beer, the load is yours. We got half our logs from San Bernardino County fire mitigation that way.
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Artmodels
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# Posted: 26 Oct 2022 11:23am - Edited by: Artmodels
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More pics
Different construction details. The main beams are 30 foot cut on three sides to 18" wide, 24" tall
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Artmodels
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# Posted: 26 Oct 2022 12:31pm
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Logs, and how they are joined
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 26 Oct 2022 03:16pm
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Old post resurrected. I am now a full fledged member of the LHBA, great investment. Their methods are simple, solid, reliable and rock solid when done. Lots of advantages to their methods. You deviate, it will cost you more money. But one is certainly entitled to deviated anywhere he wants.
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