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NorthShoreSLR
Member
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2025 03:04pm - Edited by: NorthShoreSLR
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Hello all you helpful and intelligent people (and a slight nod to all the rest ?). I'm building my first cabin. I've done a ton of interior work, but this this is my first from the ground up build (other than a sauna). It will be a south-facing dry cabin, with electric backup heat and a wood stove at approx. 14x32 with a shed roof. It will be a two story (??), with most of the "living space" on the upper level - cause daaaaang that view of Lake Superior ???
Over the last six months, I've been collecting doors and windows off the marketplace. Some are built for 2x4 construction and some 2x6.
As I'm designing the layout, what should I keep in mind?
I can mix the use of these in the same build, right? Does anyone ever frame some exterior walls with 2x6 and some with 2x4? Help me to keep the build costs down PLEASE. Can I build this cabin with 2x4 exterior walls (physically a lot easier for me, as I'm 5'6, but strong-ish for a gal I suppose) and just frame out around the 2x6 doors and windows with 2x6?
Interior design and CAD layouts are my strong suit, I've flipped a couple of houses, framing and finishing entire basements...adding bathrooms and new kitchens...but no experience with building from the ground up. Please be kind with responses, as I'm here to learn and not have my lifelong dream shot down.
Thank you for sharing the wisdom!
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2025 03:39pm
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I had a great buy on some windows for 6" and had planned on cutting them down to the nominal 4" with my cordless 'skill-saw'.
Things changed and that whole project got scrapped so I never did it....still think it would have worked.
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DaveBell
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2025 06:12pm
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Keep it simple. Could you frame the whole thing with 2x6? That would provide a larger cavity for insulation. Tell us about the foundation. The most important part.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2025 07:23pm
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The only difference in windows build for 2x4 vs 2x6 walls is the jam extensions. They can be removed and made new or extended as needed. I have extended them before even on interior doors. It's really no big deal to change this and is typicaly done in the trim stage of things.
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ICC
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2025 09:38pm
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I like the idea of the floor that gets the main use being upstairs for the view. Having two levels introduces possible issues such as; if your primary heat is a wood burning stove what level is it on and how do you transfer the right amount of hot air to the other level?
You could use 2x4 wall framing as far as the strength of the materials goes. What about insulation? What rules and building regulations is your project going to be subject to? If the energy code must be adhered to you may be better to build 2x6 framed walls as it is easier to achieve the higher R-values with 2x6’s. But there are ways to meet energy code and use 2x4’s.
Where’s the fresh water come from? Will the cabin be used in winter? If so the water system will likely need winterizing unless you plan to heat the building all winter. In that case you would want maximum insulation, at least what the codes require.
Re the shed roof design. What pitch do you envision? Many shed roofs I see are low pitch which is not so great in winter. There are many low-pitch roofs in my area and lots of people shoveling snow off them in winter.
What are the snow loads in the area? I think 60 PSF may be used around Lake Superior in MN. A 14 foot wide shed roof would require 2x10 or 2x12 rafters depending on species used. If it was a gable roof 2x6 rafters would likely do. Along with thinking about this how much insulation? In the roof or ceiling with an attic?
As for using mismatched wall framing thickness and doors or windows, depending on the items you may be able to modify one size to fit the other size framing. It’ll take some thinking before cutting to try and figure out the details before starting the project.
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travellerw
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2025 11:23am
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Modify the door/window jams, not the cabin walls. Frame everything with 2X6, then build extensions for the doors/windows jams.
2X6 is stronger, has more space for insulation and generally is considered minimum for most people. Yes it costs a little more, but the foundation and structure are NOT where you want to skimp.
As to the 2x4 being easier to construct with. Definitely since the are lighter, but there are tricks that can be done to assist with 2x6 construction. An ATV is a super valuable tool and can be used to pull walls erect for example.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 6 Jan 2025 11:31am
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Could 2x6 on 24" centers be advised for this rather than 2x4 on 16"s.
With a new self build I think Id be looking at doing the 'rainwall' construction too and whatever that 'breathing roofing' thing is called.
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NorthShoreSLR
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2025 10:45pm
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Gcrank1:
I can see now how easily the 2x6 extension jams could be trimmed down to fit 2x4 framing and I can imagine how I would trim the 2x4 framing out to work in 2x6 framing. Makes sense.
I'm curious about your idea of 2x6 at 24"oc. That would help make it lighter for me to build. I'm imagining lifting these walls up (no I don't have an ATV) and I would like to sheath them while they're lying down, before lifting, as that would be easier for me, ESPECIALLY with the second story and not have to mess with scaffolding at this stage.
I'll look into rainwall and breathing roofing...unfamiliar.
Thank you!
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NorthShoreSLR
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2025 10:54pm
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DaveBell
Thanks for the input. You're probably right about keeping it simple with just one size of wall framing. I am concerned about the weight of building with 2x6, but I'll continue to YouTube every trick for solo building.
Like I was saying to Gcrank1, I'd like to sheath the walls while laying down (building them in manageable length sections), as that would be easier for me than 4x8 sheets up ladders and scaffold. What do you think about his thoughts of 2x6 at 24"oc?
Foundation: slab on grade (my dad runs heavy equipment and was able to excavate and level - told it's a "perfect" site for a slab. I am pinching pennies together to happily hire this out and I can recall the thickness, maybe 4" or 5", rebar and insulation panels, and then a deeper perimeter. I think I'll have him place the anchor bolts too, as he did when he poured the screen porch at my house - made it really easy for me to get the walls up and secure solo.
Thanks again for your thoughts!
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NorthShoreSLR
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2025 11:17pm
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ICC
Thanks for the thoughts and questions.
I love hearing with a wood stove, but there will be electric baseboard as well (just to keep it at a minimum when needed). This is exactly how I heat my current home (also a slab, but single story) and it's super quiet and warm.
As far as the layout, it's been tricky to design for an upper floor main living area that "draws you up" when you enter from ground level. So the design plan is a modified split level entry, where you enter at ground, rise up a half flight of stairs to a half of a floor when the landing in a foyer/hooks/bench/etc. (small ~13'x9' bunk room ahead - electric baseboard) and then turn up another half flight of stairs to the "main" upper level open floor plan and the small wood stove near the top of these stairs. The ground level is storage (yes only 4'H under that bunk room) but 8' elsewhere and a screen porch that you enter thru. Sounds complex, right? I'm not making it easy on myself, I know.
Not an energy code that has to be met for permitting or anything. Small cabin - not full-time living.
It will be a dry cabin (acknowledging that in the not-so-near future, a well may be drilled, but no plans for septic other than the fancy outhouse I built in the fall), but will have the pipe for future water (and conduit.for electric) put into the concrete slab when it's poured. I've lived in a dry cabin before where we bring in our own water and that won't be a problem here. Will be nice to not have to worry about the pipes freezing, low maintenance to be able to walk away from it for a couple months if needed.
Sounds like you know a lot about roofs too! I was thinking that I'd be comfortable up on a 4:12 roof (that's what I built the outhouse as - but that slope FACES south and I'm sure the snow will melt right off of it). The cabin roof would slope opposite, with the low side on the northern side and the high side on the southern side (passive solar gain). Do you think it's not aggressive enough of a slope in this case? Metal roof. I was imagining 2x10 rafters - cutting the birdseye myself, as I did with the outhouse. Is this what they call a "hot roof" design? Looked like R30 insulation would be adequate then? But I don't know...good question on the snow load. No idea ?
Finally, is there any scenario where you would see it reasonable in this scenario to use 2x4 construction? I'm talking budget for sure, but also my ability to construct and lift.
Thanks again!
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NorthShoreSLR
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2025 11:19pm
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travellerw
Okay bring your ATV! ???
I wish, it's just not an option for me. Paying every bit of this in cash as I go and no ATV in sight. But any other tricks are welcome!
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NorthShoreSLR
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2025 11:32pm
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gcrank1
Okay I see...breathing roofing is kind of the opposite approach to the hot roofing that I had in mind. Lots of pros and cons of both...I'm a little unsure - maybe others will chime in or you can add more thoughts.
Is rainwall the same as a rain screen? If so, I've don't it before and that works well for me, especially considering having a nice evening overhang.
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DaveBell
Moderator
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2025 03:39am
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Quoting: NorthShoreSLR I am concerned about the weight of building with 2x6
Quoting: NorthShoreSLR What do you think about his thoughts of 2x6 at 24"oc?
NEVER EVER EVER 24" OC.
Not in floor joists, not in walls, not in roofs.
Do you want the thing to collapse on your head?
Do you want to die because you saved a few $$?
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NorthShoreSLR
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2025 07:27am
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DaveBell
I'm concerned that it will be too heavy for me to build the walls laying flat, sheath them, and be able to tip them up in place. I'm framing solo and I'm a 5'6 female - that's why I was asking about and exploring lighter weight options.
No, I do not want it to collapse to save money. It's more about the ability to PHYSICALLY build...but yes, budget is a thing and I'm paying cash as I go to do this...so if I can make concessions that don't affect important structural decisions, I'd love to hear about those ideas. I've only ever framed 16" OC, but other than the outhouse, have only ever done interior walls...so I'm here to learn.
Thank you for the guidance!
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2025 07:55am - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Quoting: NorthShoreSLR I'm concerned that it will be too heavy for me to build the walls laying flat, sheath them, and be able to tip them up in place. I'm framing solo and I'm a 5'6 female - that's why I was asking about and exploring lighter weight options.
Always 16" OC, frame the walls, then stand them up, square them up then sheet them.
Make sure stud layout measurements are pulled from the same direction on opposite walls, so all studs on a north wall are straight across from all studs on a south wall. same goes for a east and west. If its a square or rectangle, just pick a corner. Same goes for any load bearing interior walls. I'm with ICC on shed roofs, build a pitch roof.
Oh, studs for walls are not 8 feet long, framing studs are different length, they are 92 5/8 inches (usually called studs, but people tend to generically call all 2X4 and 2X6 "studs" so be warned) long, a regular 2X6 is 96". This will also mean, by the time you have the bottom plate on and the 2 top plates (make sure they interlock in corners, you end up with an 8 foot wall. BUT your sheeting will need to be 9 feet long, if you get 8 foot sheets, will be too short without a cheezy Z flashing splice which really takes away from shear wall strength and looks ugly. You will have to special order the 9 foot stuff from a box store, while a lumber store probably has them in stock. This way, sheeting nailed into rim joist, all studs at 16" OC and to the top of the top plate with no breaks. Avoid OSB, use real plywood. OSB stinks, gets wet, swells up and you can toss a dead cat right through it them.
Plywood smells like a nice cabinet shop or lumber store when done and stays strong. But that is just my opinion. Cost is probably 5 bucks different now.
If I can make a suggestion, watch the youtube videos by Larry Haun, he have videos of every aspect of building broken down into section, ie flooring, walls, roofs (I loved his rafter section and use it exclusivity), stairs. The man was a genius and he never wasted a single step. He has a book too called the efficient carpenter.
Larry Haun framing floors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4OmW37loVo
Larry Haun framing walls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oVkOhyds_0
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DaveBell
Moderator
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2025 08:01am
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Build each wall in manageable sections. Like halves or thirds. Stand up each section, secure to the ground with 2x4x10s, stand up the next section, check with a level, the screw them together (about 8 screws, 4 on one side 4 on the other side, alternating sides). Start with thirds and if weight is no problem, try halves.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2025 08:16am - Edited by: gcrank1
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Ive used my car and mini pickup trailer hitch to pull quite a bit of stuff when I didn't have anything else.
Now that you mentioned it what I was suggesting is called a 'hot roof'. As I understand it does breath.
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NorthShoreSLR
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2025 09:27am
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toyota_mdt_tech
Good, solid advice. Thank you.
Yes I'm aware of 92-5/8" studs. I do tend to get my terms wrong, as I'm usually working by myself and haven't learned the right that terminology, but know what I'm looking for (usually!).
Good advice on the 9' sheeting. I didn't know that.
I'll check out Larry Haun. I am a visual learner too, and love watching the YouTube vids - super calming.
I get what you're saying about the OSB - I'll price it out. Hate to say it, but this MIGHT be an area that I compromise. I'm pretty good at wrapping and sealing...so I think it would be okay. I understand a lot of experienced builders in here build legacy homes and the standards are a lot higher, as money allows. I do want a solid little cabin, but I've also lived in shacks in the Alaskan interior (no building codes...so some really sketchy landlord specials) that kept me warm enough and alive (low standard ?).
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NorthShoreSLR
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2025 05:15pm
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Anyone know of a resource or a source for hire that would check my framing plan for accuracy and make suggestions for any changes that should be made?
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2025 10:28pm
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2x4 vs 2x6 walls
16”OC vs 24” OC
For a structure built on a slab we can compare a 2 story building with a gable roof, one built with 2x4’s, the other with 2x6’s. The 2X4 walls at 16” OC studs and the 2x6 walls at 24” OC. Both would be acceptable for a structure with up to a 32 foot roof span. I’ll compare a plain wall section, no window or doors.
A sixteen foot long section of a 2x4 wall would have 13 studs (92-5/8”) on 16: centers. Plus 3 x sixteen foot top and bottom plates (1 btm, 2 top). Using today's Lowe’s prices that would cost $206. Weight varies with species and moisture content. To avoid a lot of calculations I used weights from an engineering table. This lot of 2x4 framing lumber COULD weigh 206 lbs.
A 16 foot section of wall using 2x6 studs on 24” centers would have 9 studs (92-5/8”) and also 3 x sixteen foot plates. Using today’s Lowes pricing this 2x6 wall framing would cost $240. Using the same engineering tables this wall framing COULD weigh 240 lbs.
So, no monetary savings and no savings on weight. In fact the 2x6 wall with 24” centers could weight more. To be fair if the 2x6 wall was constructed using the Advanced Framing or Optimum Value Engineering (OVE) we could eliminate some of the framing materials and have room for better cavity insulation. This does require careful planning as the load paths must align properly from rafters or trusses down through the walls and floors. Advanced Framing would reduce materials cost and also reduce the weight over simply building a more or less conventional 2x6 wall with 24” OC studs.
Here’s a link of interest…
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2025 10:29pm
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QUESTION: How important is it to be able to have more insulation in the OVE 2x6 wall cavity? Would a 2x4 wall have sufficient insulation? As far as current energy codes a 2x4 wall falls short, unless the wall has the r-value increased by doing something extra such as installing a layer of sheet foam over the exterior. Even if there is no need to build to code, would the extra insulation be nice to have? Think about it?
A side note: each state has the authority to set building codes, energy codes, plumbing codes, etc which cover the entire state. They are usually worded to be the minimum rules for the entire state. Local areas may elect to increase the standards, but not reduce them. There is sometimes lax or no enforcement of rules on a local level. That is not quite the same thing as no regulations, but it sort of becomes an individual consideration that could have consequences. Or maybe not. Your choice.
I like the increased energy efficiency of OVE but I also like the increased energy efficiency achieved with sheathing the exterior with sheet foams.
Regarding 2x4 @16” vs. 2x6 @24”…. There are other adjustments that should be considered.
How will the interior walls be finished? If drywall is planned then 5/8” thick drywall will provide smoother, less wavy and more solid feeling walls.
In any area where wall cabinets will be installed, installing horizontal blocking between studs will make hanging the cabinets easier. For that matter, even 16” OC studs, blocking can result in cabinets that are easier to install and more securely fastened to the wall.
24” OC studs provide fewer places for switch and receptacle boxes to be installed without some sort of extra framing installed before the interior walls are finished.
There likely are other little details that have not popped back into my head.
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ICC
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2025 10:32pm
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As far as OSB vs plywood that is another area of disparity of opinion. Plywood today is not as nice as plywood of yesteryear, IMO.
For floors the very best subflooring is Advantech, made by huberwood.com . It is virtually waterproof.
They also make a wall sheathing that looks like OSB but is stiffer. The Advantech sheathing and subflooring are about 25% stiffer than plywood.
In addition, they have a wall system, also good for roof sheathing, called the Zip System. Possibly more money than you want to spend but interesting to look at.
If Advantech subfloor is available it could be worth the extra time it allows before you get all dried in.
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ICC
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2025 10:37pm - Edited by: ICC
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Raising a wall. Framing wall jacks make it safer and easier for a solo builder to raise an entire wall. This video is about wall jacks. I do not necessarily endorse the author, but I do believe wall jacks can be a big help. Youtube will have several more videos I am sure.
About the 4:40 minute time the jacks are shown lifting a wall
These things can run from $130 up into the thousands for powered heavy duty models
Check Amazon, (again not a product endorsement, just information.) You may also be able to rent a set locally.
Probably more thoughts later, next day, whatever.
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travellerw
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# Posted: 11 Jan 2025 12:52pm
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You can pretty much move the world with a Come Along and ratchet straps. Lumber can be used as levers to assist with things. Saw horses used as rests allow you to lift part way, then rest on the saw horse.
Walls should be lifted before sheeting to reduce weight.
Your real issue won't be the walls, it will be the roof. I'm guessing you will do build in place roof structure as I can't see how you could prebuild and lift on your own (not without equipment, like a picker truck). Don't underestimate the height. Our cabin is a 2 story with a gambrel roof and is like 28ft at the peak. 28ft is nothing to sneeze at, especially if you have a healthy fear of heights.
You will need to come up with some way to lift the sheeting up on the roof as I can't see you carrying a 4x8 sheet up a 2 story ladder.
I HIGHLY recommend you get some fall arrest equipment (its required in pretty much everywhere now when working beyond like 8ft). You say a "shed roof", not sure what that is. However at 14ft cabin width you are going to have a pretty steep roof no matter what you build.
Anyway.. Take it slow, think things through and just keep going. Think of it as one small job at a time.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 11 Jan 2025 01:05pm
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Draw it out with your expected pitch and headrooms inside (I know I need visual aids) including the free headroom to rafters/ceiling. Ive banged my head far too often......and reaching over my head to pull a shirt on has had me punching a low ceiling more than once.
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ICC
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# Posted: 11 Jan 2025 04:26pm
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ASCE has an online tool that can be helpful with snow & rain loads, winds and so on. I may be able to assist if you have troubles with it. The risk category must be set for it to use. Level II is what we use for single family dwellings. Set the location by address, latitude & longitude or by clicking on the map.
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NorthShoreSLR
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# Posted: 12 Jan 2025 09:20pm
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DaveBell
Can you say more about your stance on never, ever 2x6 @ 24OC? I've never framed this way, but am reading about OVE 2X6 framing.
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DaveBell
Moderator
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# Posted: 13 Jan 2025 05:00am
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I had an instance of 2x4 24" OC wall made by a chithead builder. I could move the finished wall (deflection) with my hand. The solution I did was an extra 2x4 between making 12" OC. No more wall movement.
Discussion with my friend Blaine a few years ago, who has been building for over 40 years and is now training construction superintendents told me, "always over build". The building code provides minimum safe limits. People who want to avoid the code and go cheap are asking to die when it falls over in a wind storm.
If you have no experience building, maybe you should buy a pre-built shed. Some of our members have some nice ones. Pictures are in here.
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DRP
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# Posted: 13 Jan 2025 12:32pm - Edited by: DRP
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For those old enough to remember Julie, Link and Peter.. the Mod Squad. In the 70's during the oil crisis there was a push in the trade magazines called "Mod 24" complete with similar models in the ads. I checked the card in the back of Professional Builder for more info and showed it to my Dad. "We won't be doing that!". Ten years later I was on a production crew and yup, 24" framing with 1/2" drywall inside and celotex with vinyl exteriors. You could see the waves in the walls when you turned onto the street.
Yes 24oc is "prescriptive" and within code. There is nothing structurally wrong with it. Generally the folks doing it tend to be "value engineering" which is a polite way of saying penny wise and pound foolish. The complaints revolve around the bottom dwellers. The finishes may be rated for a 2' span but the deflections around the minimums can be annoying.
I've never been in a shed that approached code minimums.
And we haven't even touched framing on 19.2" centers  .
Dad's roof systems had a large "rafter" every 8-12 feet. Hmm, how in the world? We used 3ply glued up plank T&G decking to sheath it. Someone in another thread mentioned framing on 4' centers. Go back far enough and you'll find that was common Dutch light timber framing. I've worked on timberframes with supports in the 8-12' range. Wattle and daub was inserted/applied to earthfast posts spaced ~3' on center at Jamestown.
In other words there are many ways but the parts need to work together. During covid I had to do a little of my own value engineering. I sawed my own board sheathing for a project and applied the boards to the wall framing diagonally to brace the framing and sheath it with something stronger and cheaper than the osb prices in the worst of it. For someone working solo, this was light work after the walls were tipped up, just plenty of it.
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ICC
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# Posted: 13 Jan 2025 06:48pm - Edited by: ICC
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Nice diagonal sheathing boards, DRP. Almost a shame to cover it up. I don't think I've seen any new stuff like that ever.
Anyone who builds with 2x6 OVE framing 24"OC and does NOT also make changes to the interior and exterior finishing panels will end up with a less than happy building. IMO, it is wrong for builders to use ½” drywall with 24” OC studs and stupid for anyone to say it is okay to use ½”.
For those who are not familiar with OVE, it is more than using fewer, wider spaced studs to save on lumber costs. It is about making a wall that is better insulated. There are other changes made with the framing as well.
My brother has built mostly OVE framed homes for about 10-12 years. He uses 5/8" drywall for non-wavy wall finishes; good enough to do smooth finish non-textured walls. He also does one other thing differently; he is not a big fan of the drywall clips for corners. The framers don’t mind them but the drywall guys don’t like them so much. So he uses an advanced style 2 stud corner with a 1x added for screwing drywall to.
He uses Zip wall panels for all the exterior wall sheathing; R-3 unless the client wants to pay extra for R-6, 9, or 12. The roofs get 5/8" Zip.
That gets the energy efficiency of the OVE wall system and has straight smooth walls inside and out. When it is done right and air sealed the home also needs an energy (heat) recovery ventilator to maintain healthy air conditions inside. This is a good thing in a way as many parts of NM have high levels of radon gas even in older air-leaky construction.
A traditional 2x4 framed wall and R-9 Zip exterior sheathing could be a less expensive method and still cover the energy code when that must be met.
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