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KinAlberta
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# Posted: 18 Nov 2024 07:12pm - Edited by: KinAlberta
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In the last year or so I’ve come across a few articles saying spray foam is creating problems.
'I wanted to cry': Devastating risks of spray foam insulation hidden from Vermont homeowners - VTDigger
…
”With 25 years of building experience, he knew that peeling paint indicated the presence of moisture. But the location was odd — that trim underneath the overhang should stay dry. So he grabbed a ladder and a pry bar to take a closer look.
His stomach dropped…”
Everyone I spoke to agrees that spray foam is better suited for some jobs than others. Instead of the top of a home, look to its bottom, they said — particularly old rubble-walled foundations.
“That’s where spray foam really shows up as one of the best options available, without going to more heroic measures that can cost a lot more money,” said Racusin, New Frameworks’ building science director.
https://vtdigger.org/2023/05/22/i-wanted-to-cry-devastating-risks-of-spray-foam-insul ation-hidden-from-vermont-homeowners/
Major lenders reject homes with spray foam insulation - BBC
November 18, 2024
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cqjrpv218r0o
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2024 12:02am
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Oh my......
Well, I guess I'll just keep on keeping on in my old remodeled schoolhouse home with its 'normal' old house issues.
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paulz
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2024 03:17pm
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You still live in your old school house? Hopefully they gave you a bigger desk. 
30s here this morning. Cold on the uninsulated floor. 70 in the cabin. Pretty good access for spray foam kit, maybe not after reading this..
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2024 07:41pm
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We have about 940sf, any wall work Ive put in f-glass, not near enough in the ceiling and we poured in cellulose down from attic into the wall cavities. Some new windows too, but all in all it is pretty basic old school ( )
And our nat gas and electric combined run about $2200 a year; not too bad I think.
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paulz
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2024 09:46pm - Edited by: paulz
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That’s probably about what I pay at my grid house. But I’m tight wadding. It too has fiberglass in the walls, slab floor. Roof is tar and gravel over about 2 inch fiberboard. That’s it, no wood sheeting. All ‘50s stuff in poor shape. So far I’m not using the in slab gas heating, just the wood stove in the master bedroom. Last year we had a live in nurse for awhile staying in another bedroom so I did have the in floor heat going. Sure was nice (not to mention cooked meals) but the gas bill was like watching a propeller spin. And it takes a day or two to heat the concrete floor, we’re just not there enough to make it worthwhile.
Even the bedroom wood stove, same Arrow as here at the cabin, struggles with the single pane windows and slider. With the door closed it’s still empty before morning and the room is cold. Makes me appreciate the the newer cabin build. Night log will keep it warm all night, quick top up in the morning.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2024 10:21pm
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Are we tightwads or is it we are just cabineers where ever we are
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ICC
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# Posted: 19 Nov 2024 10:21pm - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: paulz struggles with the single pane windows and slider
That reminds me of a lot of the older homes here in NM. They used single-pane metal frame windows with a grid of panes in many homes back in the 40s and into the 60s. They can frost up nicely/badly in cold winter weather.
This is a typical old corner window found in many kitchens here. All steel, single pane. Usually casement style. This is in a concrete block wall but they were used in stick frame construction too.
If carefully removed we could eventually find someone who would pay nutty $ for refurbishing and re-use.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2024 10:32am
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From what I gather the article says basicly a house needs to breath a bit.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 20 Nov 2024 03:03pm
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Another reason to put in a fresh air entry for the stove?
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KinAlberta
Member
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2024 12:49pm - Edited by: KinAlberta
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Quoting: ICC Quoting: paulz struggles with the single pane windows and slider That reminds me of a lot of the older homes here in NM
Here in Canada our ‘70s home had double aluminum sliders. In the winter they’d frost up from the bottom to the point where we weren’t tall enough to see out them. Replaced them with vinyl triple pane windows and life has been great ever since. (Much quieter in the house too.)
Have had them for 30 years with only one minor failure a few years ago with very slight fogging between the panes.
Regarding the foaming, we foamed the rim joist in thd bsmt. No signs of problems with that a so far.
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paulz
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2024 01:26pm
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Quoting: KinAlberta Have had them for 30 years with only one minor failure a few years ago with very slight fogging between the panes
One of my cabin windows is hazy between the glass, always been that way, summer or winter. Not that big a deal, worth taking apart. Anything to do or just live with it? It is the presumably removable sliding side. Right side of photo.
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travellerw
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2024 03:10pm
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I also saw some articles about spray foam and did a little digging.
There have been quite a few instances where it was not mixed correctly (probably at the factory) and caused some big problems. One of the main components of spray foams is isocyanates. By themselves isocyanates are major irritants. The chemical reaction in the spraying process renders the isocyanates inert. However, if things are mixed wrong, those isocyanates don't react and can cause issues for years. The only real solution in that case is the complete removal of all foam and then spray a new layer to seal in any unreacted isocyanates.
However, this is an extremely rare occurrence and would be caught by any experienced installer as the foam just doesn't "look" right. It not something I would loose sleep over or change my mind about spray foam.
As to a house breathing. We currently live in a super tight house but its managed by an HRV. I don't think it would be possible without the HRV as its constantly pulling moisture out of the air (at least not here in Edmonton). We probably have it set a little too low @35% which is why it runs so much. Our heating bills are pretty low. My parents live in a similar sized house that is 20 years old and their bills are near double ours.
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KinAlberta
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2024 04:10pm
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I’m in Edmonton too. Typical mid-1970s leaky house.
With our recently refinished hardwood floors we’re having trouble with too little not too much humidity in the winter. So in our climate, I sure can’t see any risk of moisture trapping and rotting sheathing.
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ICC
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2024 04:11pm - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: Brettny the article says basicly a house needs to breath a bit.
As was mentioned by travelers, Heat Recovery Ventilation is required, or at least is the best way to go. You can then build as tight as you can and keep the interior air healthy without losing the interior air temperature. It works summer and winter.
My brother's company built many very energy-efficient homes with HRVs included. The equipment costs will be paid with the energy savings. Looking at square footage and comparing the new builds to older homes, the small amount of energy needed to operate the ventilation fans in an HRV is negligible compared to the amount of energy that good air-sealing and insulation saves.
I'm pretty well sealed up and equipped with an HRV. I have trouble keeping the humidity up to above 30% as you can see in the photos.
The high VOC's level in the current conditions image is because I just painted a wall. That should be helping to raise the humidity but I have a window open to air out the odor a bit and the exterior humidity is only 10%. The 24-hour image shows the average over the past 24 hours.
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travellerw
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# Posted: 22 Nov 2024 06:52pm
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Quoting: KinAlberta I’m in Edmonton too. Typical mid-1970s leaky house. With our recently refinished hardwood floors we’re having trouble with too little not too much humidity in the winter. So in our climate, I sure can’t see any risk of moisture trapping and rotting sheathing.
You would be surprised.. Our house will climb to 90% in no time with the HRV shutdown. It happened when I popped the breaker one time last winter (if you are asking how, lets just say I was using a "water distiller" in our utility room).
Actually, we don't even have a humidifier anymore. It never ran and the water would get super nasty so I just removed it. Haven't missed it one bit. I can adjust the HRV to keep the house at anything I want. With 5 people showing and cooking there is no shortage of moisture.
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KinAlberta
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# Posted: 24 Nov 2024 01:55pm - Edited by: KinAlberta
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This foam issue may become like: asbestos.
Just hearing the word ASBESTOS scares people off even when the asbestos is in places that are sealed or sealed-off like in adhesives, old floor tiles or in attics.
Major Lenders Reject Homes with Spray Foam
Insulation - WHAT HAPPENED? - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCZgv4K5aTk
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DaveBell
Moderator
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# Posted: 18 Dec 2024 02:39pm
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Good video on spray foam.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw-3ekJVsBA
and
https://www.youtube.com/@SprayJones/videos
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