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LeeMn
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# Posted: 2 Aug 2024 10:59pm
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Any good ideas/plans on setting up an electrical system that runs: lights, a ceiling fan and outlets for charging cell phones off of a battery. And then when the generator is running; charges the battery and also allows high voltage items like vacuum cleaner and microwave to run but only when the generator is running?
I have a 50 year old 480 sq ft cabin I bought 4 years ago in Northern WI that I use maybe once a month outside of hunting season, then maybe 2 to 3 times a month in Oct and Nov. This spring I replaced the floor, siding, roof and tore out the insulation and sheetrock. Been racking my brain about electrical before I put interior walls back up. Right now I have 2 lights and 2 outlets that run off my 3500 watt generator via a 20 amp plug outside of cabin, no panel box. Electric company quoted me $76k to run power to my driveway, so that’s not an option and therefore no need to stick to code since the town won’t inspect (thinking 12/6 rule, still want to be safe).
I have LP lights along with LP and Wood heat so not dependent on electricity but LP gas takes forever to get running in 0 degree weather.
So trying to decide what to do without throwing a lot more money at the cabin for limited use. Security is an issue too, broken into in February.
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paulz
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# Posted: 2 Aug 2024 11:54pm
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https://www.small-cabin.com/forum/3_12200_0.html
Review: EcoFlow RIVER 2 portable power
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Brettny
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# Posted: 3 Aug 2024 08:03pm
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Run electrical like you would a house. 14/2 to everything except the bathroom and kitchen, they get 12/2. Run it all to a standard electrical box and then run something like a 120v30a plug out to your generator if it's got that size plug.
With so little useage I would just get a power station and expect to run things like a vacuum and microwave off a generator. With swapping plugs around you can accomplish this prety easily.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 3 Aug 2024 10:06pm - Edited by: gcrank1
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Pretty much btdt since 1983, on second cabin now, both under 500sf and totally off grid.
I think Ive tried about all the variations from 14/2 Romex and 12vdc and also that inverted to 120vac.
Also done generator to small scale solar (6x110w panels) and lead acid batteries to now LFP, msw inverters to psw.
This latest iteration (Im just now finishing it up) is imo our best and easy to live with if you don't 'need' to run the cabin like your home.
Our 'needs' are modest, not unlike what you have stated, the big draw stuff like microwave (too handy and so quick!) and vacuum are run off the 1700/2000 peak inverter gen.
The two small ceiling fans c/w lights are evenly spaced in our new 12.5 x 28 prebuilt log cabin. I had the 14-2 Romex run for their drops in the build and the upline has a switch by the door. The power feed for it will eventually be via my psw inverter with an internal automatic transfer switch so when the gen is run it switches from battery/inv to the gen power (and back again when gen is shut off). But for right now Im the 'switch'; the fans/lights are fed from my little psw inverter off a 100ah lfp battery (if you want bat power below freezing you should get at least 200ah lead acid bats). I can swap in an older AGM bat for winter occasional visits, otherwise the lfp has been Wonderful.
I can also run my 600w 2 slice toaster and slow cooker off the inverter (not at the same time).
Led lighting was a game changer (though they wont throw heat in the winter like your lp lamps), they use so little juice that I hardly need to factor in their load.
My inverters have usb ports so anything usb charges and/runs on them. This includes usb rechargeable lights! No hard wiring required, just charge em up and hang em where you want. Some have hooks and some magnets, too easy.
This last week I got a Ecoflow River2 self contained portable power supply and have been putting it through testing. The R2 is the smallest (ie, lowest wh 12v lfp battery. It suits my purposes but will advise that anyone considering such to do your 'energy audit' and get the next size bigger unit than your calc indicates. And many units from other companies are Not lfp battery; they are lithium but a different chemistry and imo a poor value for the life-cycle of the bats.
These units make it so easy to have elec power where you need it without running wiring from a power source. That is to say, for me I now have only the one simple circuit for hard wiring, the portable led lighting and the portable power supply (which lets me have 12vdc, 120vac and usb where ever I want).
Im thinking I will never run 'big' wiring again 
Btw, I have a thread ongoing about this unit and my testing/trials (referenced by Paul prev).
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LeeMn
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# Posted: 21 Aug 2024 01:33pm
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Very good information. I plan on running more 14/2 through the cabin, but it has been my experience that the more line I run the more draw it takes. This is from 20 years ago when I ran small invert (800W) off of Lead battery. Would work if i plug items into it but if I ran it through the new cabin's line it wasn't enough to power the lamps.
What I have now is generator 20 feet from cabin running to a 110 inlet on outside of cabin. The attached pic shows what the inside looks like, it runs down underground to shed where LP is stored for a light in there, then up to 2 lights and 1 outlet. I want to replace outside switch with 30AMP input and a breaker box on inside.
What I am finding hard to find is a outline of how to set up, inside the cabin, a feed into the breaker box for a battery system that will run outlets when generator is off and charge battery when generator is on. I am okay with a manual switch (or plugging in a charger to the battery when generator is off) .
How do I wire a inverter from battery into the breaker box?
If anyone has done this I would appreciate the information and make and model of items used.
Thank!
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 21 Aug 2024 01:58pm - Edited by: Nobadays
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Maybe take a look around THIS, the DIYSOLAR forum. A lot of good information and people.
Edit: I would recommend going with tier 1 equipment for solar. If you are into tinkering with/replacing solar equipment often then go cheap and have fun. If you are going to your cabin to relax and/or hunt and want your solar to work every time, buy Victron, Schneider, Outback.... etc. (For ease of use, Victron hands down!)
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 21 Aug 2024 03:09pm
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The breaker box/service panel doesnt need to be overly big, it depends upon how many circuits you think you need plus a couple for 'future expansion' maybe. A basic box for a small set up is a 2 breaker 'accessory' one like for a hot tub or pool works well.
The box doesnt care where the input power comes from, grid, generator, inverter off the bat-bank, etc.
You wire the box with the input leads hot, neutral, ground the same as on grid elec.
The easy manual transfer is an 'extension' lead (the input wiring' to the box, with a plug; you plug your gen or inverter lead in as needed (the simple manual swap). Which ever way feeds the source power into the box for distribution.
A more fancy way is an actual transfer switch, a lead from gen goes in one side and inverter in the other and you throw the switch depending on what you want as source power.
There are automatic transfer boxes too ($$) that when the gen is started it automatically switches from inverter (bat-bank) and when the gen stops it switches back. No levers to throw. I have an inverter with an internal auto transfer like that but it is an energy hog. To use it for heavy loads is good, for a lot of light duty use I like my little 300w inverter with very low draw.
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LeeMn
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# Posted: 21 Aug 2024 05:13pm - Edited by: LeeMn
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Thanks gcrank1. I never thought of just making a extension lead. I'll just make that inside the cabin.
Sounds so simple now that I've read it.
Glad I made the post!
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travellerw
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# Posted: 21 Aug 2024 10:12pm
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Quoting: LeeMn Thanks gcrank1. I never thought of just making a extension lead. I'll just make that inside the cabin. Sounds so simple now that I've read it. Glad I made the post
I will add one thing though. If you run a lead out to the generator, but then decide you want to use a "power station" to provide some power you need to be careful. If you feed the panel from another source (whether its a double ended cable, or a proper feed into the panel) that will make the power lead to the generator hot and it has exposed connections. If it was plugged into the generator that could lead to damage, but if its not plugged in it will be a live cable with exposed prongs and be a electrocution hazard.
If you want to do that in the future, get a proper transfer switch so you can switch between the generator and power station safely!
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 21 Aug 2024 11:30pm
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Yes NEVER make/use a 'suicide cord' (dbl male end plugs!
I use RV type sockets that take a std 'safe' cord.
And I disconnect the gen lead so there can be NO back feeding.
By me having only one input only one (gen) or the other (inverter/bat-bank) can be plugged in at a time.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 22 Aug 2024 12:17am
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Really what should be done with no transfer switch is to have the main pannel have a male plug coming out of it and you either plug it into generator power or inverter power.
My Inverter has a transfer switch so every time the generator is on it's not useing inverter power. With that between the generator to inverter connection I have a outlet that I plug a battery charger into. So every time my generator is on my battery is being charged and all the power I'm useing is coming from my generator not the batteries.
In addition to that my generator is remote start so at the push of a button I have full generator power at my fingertips. You cant accomplish this with out a transfer switch unless your moving plugs around. I wanted my system to be fool proof and simple with minimal instructions needed to use.
My cabin is wired like a normal 120v house.
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travellerw
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# Posted: 22 Aug 2024 03:06pm
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Quoting: Brettny My Inverter has a transfer switch so every time the generator is on it's not useing inverter power. With that between the generator to inverter connection I have a outlet that I plug a battery charger into. So every time my generator is on my battery is being charged and all the power I'm useing is coming from my generator not the batteries.
This is a pretty common thing for a generator/solar setup with a quality inverter.
However, with the introduction of portable power stations things have changed.The power station IS the inverter and none that I know of have an ATS built in. So you are left with 2 sources of power. Even worse the generator is outside and typically the power station is kept inside. So the only "proper" solution in that scenario would be a transfer switch inside just before the panel (either manual or automatic). This will prevent backfeeding of either power source and a possible dangerous situation like I detailed above.
I know we are a bit offtrack of the OPs question and in the weeds. However, I think this is an important discussion as generator/power station solutions are only going to become more popular. Its really a great solution for a lightly used cabin as it requires a smaller investment and you don't have the steep learning curve of a complex solar solution. Heck, now that I look back, I dismissed it too quickly for my own cabin.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 22 Aug 2024 07:48pm
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Quoting: travellerw However, with the introduction of portable power stations things have changed.The power station IS the inverter and none that I know of have an ATS built in. So you are left with 2 sources of
If you have a portable power station you wouldnt be useing a inverter or other solar system then. You would have to rework the system. Then again I'm not really sure what type of battery system the OP is useing.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 22 Aug 2024 11:47pm
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Im all for the KISS Principle, and the SAFE Principle.
All 12v has ever done to me is surprise, sparks and some blown fuses. 120vac has tried to kill me (my fault) and does kill people every day. That doesnt have to be 120vac from just the grid but Any source, like an independent inverter hooked to a bat-bank/solar Or inside a 'portable power station or from a generator.
Just keep that in mind whenever you are making/feeding 120vac into a service panel (as well as the distribution thereafter).
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travellerw
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2024 05:09am
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Quoting: Brettny If you have a portable power station you wouldnt be useing a inverter or other solar system then. You would have to rework the system. Then again I'm not really sure what type of battery system the OP is useing.
The portable power station IS the inverter (BlueTTI, Jackery, Anker, Ecoflow). So you are absolutely using an inverter, its just an all in one unit. A 50lb unit, with a built in 3500W inverter, built in MPPT solar controller and enough capacity to run lights, gadgets and a fridge for the weekend (2048Wh).. All for under 2K and about the size if a large bread box.
Bring the unit out, have your weekend, take the unit home and charge it.. Rinse and repeat. (have a generator "just in case"! (Maybe you shot an animal and need to run your big AC in your home built cooler). Oh, I'm running the generator more than I like. No problem, slap up 500W-1500W of solar panels and just plug them into the power station (no fuss, no muss, just make it all parallel connection and life is good).
Sigh.. takes all the fun and hobby out of it, but its what some people want. And why not, we have a ton in life to fuss about!
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travellerw
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2024 05:26am - Edited by: travellerw
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Quoting: gcrank1 All 12v has ever done to me is surprise, sparks and some blown fuses. 120vac has tried to kill me (my fault) and does kill people every day.
However, per installation 12, 24 or 48V start WAY more fires. Its just math. The lower the voltage, the higher the amps. Everything is fine and dandy until your power source is running low. As the battery runs low and the voltage drops, the amperage must rise. As we know, wires are rated on amperage. The amperage rises and the wire heats up. The margin of error shrinks massively as the battery depleats and the loads keeps pulling current! Sizing your conductors properly and ensure EVERYTHING is fused is key to a safe low voltage DC system.
Sigh.. If younger me had known this fact there would be more than a few starter motors that did not end up in the scrapheap! My dad is still salty about a small tractor starter I smoked when it was cold and I just kept cranking on it. After that we had to pull start that damn tractor to snow blow the driveway.
P.S. this is for FLA batts.. Li based batteries "fall off a cliff" before that really becomes an issue.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2024 02:18pm
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My rule of thumb now is to check the wire gauge chart and if on the high end of the suitable amperage for the distance go with the next bigger gauge wire.
In my old 16x24 shack with 12v I fed in with 10ga and distributed with 12ga, and at the far end had noticeable voltage drop (ie, the fan plugged in the far outlet ran slower than closer to the fuse box).
AWG wire may have been better than Romex but I figured I was staging ahead for eventual 120vac.
Fwiw, for a while I had both 12vdc and 120vac but things got way better when I did go all 120vac (but I didn't oversize my inverter and have to take the overhead hit).
I understand the attraction of 12dvc for sweet and simple for a small cabin (read Tiny to me) and I'll bet a lot of folks who go that way think they can run small gauge wire 'like what a pickup truck or rv uses'.
That is dangerous!
Btw, the PPS that will run a fridge even overnight is way bigger and heavier than a breadbox. They are a fancy bat-bank and batteries + extras, even lfp take space and have weight. My little Ecoflow is for portable convenience, for real power (imo) ya still need the big bats and inverter 'component system'.
Do the 'energy audit' and size your bat-bank or PPS at least the next size up or have regrets later.
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2024 05:45pm - Edited by: paulz
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Nothing to add except you guys provoked me into buying some wire labels to make a bit more sense out of my mess.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2024 10:54pm
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Labeled wires are a joy to me!
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2024 03:18pm
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Got the simple USBs labeled, now to move on to the heavier stuff.
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Grizzlyman
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2024 10:48pm - Edited by: Grizzlyman
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Electrician(‘s son) here. I used THHN for my 12v system. It’s a lot more flexible than Romex and easier to manipulate at thicker gauges. I used #10 for my longer 12v runs. It’s easy to calculate loads and voltage loss. Also- THHN is fairly cheap.
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Grizzlyman
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# Posted: 27 Aug 2024 10:52pm - Edited by: Grizzlyman
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Also regarding the comment about the “suicide cord”- they do make male receptacles you can hardwire in if you want to power a 110v system with a generator. I bought mine on Amazon for like $10.
I have mine wired into a standard box on the exterior of the cabin. I put two standard 110 outlets inside not connected to the 12v system that are powered ONLY by the generator. We use this for vacuum and other 110v things.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 28 Aug 2024 02:36am
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Simple, effective and elegant
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