|
| Author |
Message |
Kadin
Member
|
# Posted: 17 Jul 2024 01:20am
Reply
Hello!
First post here. I’m building a little cabin “off grid” and am about to install my propane lines that will be running to a 1950s wedge wood stove that I will convert to propane as well as a 65k btu hot water heater.
I’m looking for advice on the size of copper pipe to run. Please don’t tell me to seek out professional advice. I am doing everything myself, including the dangerous stuff.
It’s a very simple setup with very short distances. I’ll be supplying the propane with a 100 lbs tank and a two stage rv regulator. I’m wanting the line to come in through the wall and then split using a tee. The stove will be 5 feet to one side of the tee and the heater is 5 feet to the other side of the tee. I’ve looked at charts for size tube based on distance but a setup like this doesn’t appear to be shown. I might just be reading the chart incorrectly…
Anyways, any help would be very much appreciated.
Best,
Kadin
|
|
travellerw
Member
|
# Posted: 17 Jul 2024 01:47am - Edited by: travellerw
Reply
Amazon is your friend.. Search up "Stainless Gas line". You want the yellow coated stuff. I would go with 3/4" to the TEE and then 1/2" to each device. The stove has the potential to use a fair amount of gas with the oven. This is pretty much how an RV is run.
You will probably need to order 3 different pieces. 1 for the main run, and then 2 lengths that come off the TEE to each device.
Some general safety advice. Keep in mind propane is heavier than air and sinks (opposite than natural gas). Fewer connections=better. Test EVERY connection with soapy water, 4 times. Regulate the gas OUTSIDE the building, before the yellow stainless (only low pressure gas enters the building). This is not in any way ALL the precautions, like you said, you are on your own and its up to you to do the research and make sure things are safe.
P.S. I did my cabin exactly the same way as you are describing, except with dual 30lb tanks.
|
|
gcrank1
Member
|
# Posted: 17 Jul 2024 03:11am
Reply
How about running 'black pipe' from outside the wall (where you hook on the line from the tank(s) and regulator(s), through the wall to a black Tee and 1/2" black pipe to each device?
Of course you would use the 'yellow' teflon tape.
|
|
spencerin
Member
|
# Posted: 17 Jul 2024 03:26am
Reply
I'm not an expert, but wouldn't both appliances accept only one size of pipe anyway? I'm guessing it's 1/2" NPT, but you'd need to trial-and-error it to confirm for each appliance. If so, I would agree with 3/4" to the tee, then whatever size is needed off of it to each appliance.
|
|
ICC
Member
|
# Posted: 17 Jul 2024 04:25am - Edited by: ICC
Reply
Personally I would avoid copper tubing unless the lines are short. Black pipe could be used. However, that makes for a lot more joints and potential points for leaks. For an 'amateur' installation CSST is probably more risk free, IMO. Especially when you use tubing with factory assembled fittings on the ends. If a joint does leak it is easier to re-tighten than an assembled black pipe.
There are tables that can be used for sizing the pipes or tubing. Add all the BTU's required and find the recommended size for the distance. Use the distance from regulator to the tee to siz we that length by using the grand total of all the possible BTU's. Use the BTU input when given a choice of input and output BTU.
I like to include shutoff valves at every point of connecting to an appliance. That can make servicing an item without interrupting gas to the other items possible.
I believe CSST should be protected against mechanical damage when left exposed, outside in particular. That is one advantage of black iron.
If using an RV regulator it may be worthwhile to use a hose/pigtail with a S/S braided cover to make rodent damage slightly less likely..
|
|
FishHog
Member
|
# Posted: 17 Jul 2024 12:14pm
Reply
I’ll second shut off valves by each item. It’s worth it now especially if your ever tracing a leak
1/2” would probably be enough but why risk it. Just run 3/4 then 1/2” it each device
Either make a pressure test gauge or use lots of soapy water at every connection to test for leaks
|
|
Kadin
Member
|
# Posted: 17 Jul 2024 02:14pm - Edited by: Kadin
Reply
Thank you all so much for the suggestions! I think I’ll go the black pipe route with 3/4” and then 1/2 to the appliances. Simple and I’ll know for sure it’s big enough. 
I’m not sure I understand why I would have a shut off at each appliance… I could see that if it were a bigger system or if you didn’t have control over shutting off the system just outside the building. It’s just a 100 lbs tank so it’s pretty easy to just shut it all off if I need to work on something. Maybe I’m missing something here.
Thanks all!
|
|
gcrank1
Member
|
# Posted: 17 Jul 2024 02:21pm
Reply
Fwiw, I have Never regretted putting a shut off valve on any plumbing or gas line project Ive done.
Think about what happens if/when, for whatever reason, you Need to disconnect one or the other appliance, maybe for an extended period.
Yes, you could just 'cap'off' the line but what if you have a 'flame up' on one and want to shut the gas off to it Right Now.
|
|
|
Brettny
Member
|
# Posted: 17 Jul 2024 02:40pm
Reply
A shut off at each appliance is code I believe.
I'm doing something similar but with a hot water heater and stove being about 4ft from the tanks. the rest of the runs going to aboit 6 propane gas lamps. I'm running black pipe every where and coming up through the floor with 3/8 copper. All the black iron to copper connections will be outside under my cabin.
Use a pipe dope/tape that's rated for propane. Amazon also sells a cheap $25 propane sniffer and a $25-35 gas pressure check fitting. It's a fitting with a gauge and Schrader valve to check for pressure drop.
|
|
Tim_Ohio
Member
|
# Posted: 17 Jul 2024 03:06pm - Edited by: Tim_Ohio
Reply
Every tank I've seen installed used refrigeration copper between tank and structure, then black iron through the wall to inside the structure and anywhere inside the structure. Sleeve it through a wall so the cavity will not fill with gas if there is a leak. Connect copper with flare fittings and valve at the outside of the structure and at the tank. It is easy to work with. Bury the copper two feet between the source and the building. Of course, there is always something changing with code or some kind of laws.
|
|
Curly
Member
|
# Posted: 17 Jul 2024 03:13pm
Reply
Not to be "that guy", but I would also suggest a combination natural gas/propane/carbon monoxide detector or alarm. Some operate on AC with a battery backup. Not that I am unconfident of your skill, but stuff happens. I recommend them even with professional piping installations.
|
|
Kadin
Member
|
# Posted: 17 Jul 2024 03:22pm
Reply
The shutoff actually make a lot of sense now that you mention it. If one appliance were to not work for an extended time I could still use the other appliance. Shut off valves it is.
Definitely will install a carbon monoxide detector.
Pipe dope, check.
Is there a way to thread your own black pipe so that you can get the lengths you want or are there just standard lengths that you piece together to get “close enough” to where you are going? Or do hardware stores cut them and thread them to length?
|
|
travellerw
Member
|
# Posted: 17 Jul 2024 03:32pm
Reply
Quoting: Kadin Is there a way to thread your own black pipe so that you can get the lengths you want or are there just standard lengths that you piece together to get “close enough” to where you are going? Or do hardware stores cut them and thread them to length?
Hand threader from Harbor Freight (Princess Auto in Canada). You will also need a vice, or a way to hold the pipe from spinning (there will be considerable torque). You will also need to lube as you cut (any motor oil works fine). Last I checked, the hardware stores have stopped cutting and threading.
However, I would highly suggest you look at the yellow stainless. Cut it to any length with just hand tools, no threading needed! Black iron is very old school these days and much more difficult to install. At least here, copper is no longer allowed within code.
|
|
Fanman
Member
|
# Posted: 17 Jul 2024 03:46pm
Reply
The required pipe size depends on the length and the total BTU. If you have 20' or less total pipe length, 1/2" pipe or tube will be sufficient. 3/8 would be too small for the heater and 3/4 is overkill... but make sure the RV regulator you're using will handle the 65KBTU heater.
It is possible to thread pipe yourself if you have the tools and some shops will do it for you, but usually you just buy and use standard lengths.
If you're using copper, all fittings must be flared, solder or compression fittings are not allowed for gas. If black pipe, I suggest using yellow paste, not tape... I've had taped joints leak but never with paste.
|
|
Tim_Ohio
Member
|
# Posted: 17 Jul 2024 04:28pm
Reply
Quoting: Kadin Is there a way to thread your own black pipe so that you can get the lengths you want or are there just standard lengths that you piece together to get “close enough” to where you are going? Or do hardware stores cut them and thread them to length?
This is why most installations by propane companies utilizes some kind of flexible material as a supply line, leaving you with a wiggle feature for exchanging a tank or for movement of some kind between the source and the supplied structure. Please, don't disregard using a sleeve through the wall. It is very important for safety.
|
|
ICC
Member
|
# Posted: 17 Jul 2024 06:20pm
Reply
Home Depot will cut and thread any length of pipe as long as you buy it from them. No charge at the stores I use. Lowes does it too. So measure carefully, make allowance for fittings and thread depth.
|
|
travellerw
Member
|
# Posted: 17 Jul 2024 08:21pm
Reply
Quoting: ICC Home Depot will cut and thread any length of pipe as long as you buy it from them. No charge at the stores I use. Lowes does it too. So measure carefully, make allowance for fittings and thread depth.
I think that is regional now! All the hardware stores up here have stopped doing that. When I was in the states earlier this year I noticed they stopped too (at least in the one HD I was in in Florida).
|
|
ICC
Member
|
# Posted: 17 Jul 2024 09:59pm
Reply
Times and things do change.
Our closest HD did still thread pipe as of a month or so ago. I haven't been in that area of the store since. They still carry a fair stock of the pipes in 2 foot increments.
|
|
Brettny
Member
|
# Posted: 18 Jul 2024 03:13pm
Reply
My local HD does thread pipe but finding someone who knows how to use the machine and can make a proper thread is another issue.
|
|
gcrank1
Member
|
# Posted: 3 Sep 2024 01:52am
Reply
Any update on the project?
An add on regarding shut-off valves; there are different valves for different purposes and you can't just go by the valve handle color. They typically run yellow, red or blue and there is no requirement (afaik) about what color for what the line carries. I was under the impression that yellow was for gas valves but just found out no.
Gas valves will have some stamping or casting on the body designating WOG (Water, Oil,or Gas) and a pressure rating. The tags on new ones will tell what certifications they passed.
Only use Gas Valves for Gas.
For placement of valves they need to be Before the flex line, if any, going to the appliance. Shut off may be critical there If a flex line fails.
|
|
|
