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Grizzlyman
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# Posted: 15 Jan 2024 14:59 - Edited by: Grizzlyman
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I know floor insulation is a topic that has been beat to death on this forum.
… but I am thinking hard about spray foaming my already built floor from the underside. Aside from the thermal benefits as the main reason, it’d be nice to solidify and deaden the floor even further with foam. I have just enough room underneath to do it and though it will be unpleasant, I don’t think it’ll take all that long (less than a day) to do ~500sq ft- or be that difficult…all things considered.
mainly though… I am prepared to shell out $$ to do this… and figured I could for $500 or so… but holy buckets after researching prices it’s like $800-$1,000 to do 1†foam in a 600 sq ft kit!! Meaning 2†of foam to get R-12 would be around 2k!!
Anyone have any idea why this stuff is so expensive? Does it just cost that much to manufacture? Is that just the way it is? Is there a better solution than the diy froth pak?
I priced out a few different brands and they’re all in that same range for the 600 sq ft.
Insulation bats are out as I don’t want rodent or wasp nests in an open floor. Rigid foam just seems like too much of a pain and would probably cost half as much as the spray but not seal or work as Well plus take a lot longer to install.
Getting foam on myself off-grid is something I will do my best to avoid with protective suit as it woul be awful to say the least.
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jsahara24
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# Posted: 15 Jan 2024 15:55
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I don't have any experience with the DIY kits except for researching/pricing it. I ended up hiring the job out to a company to spray foam the floor of my cabin, which is on piers.....
I found the price to be very competitive with the DIY kits, I got 2" thickness for $2.66/SF. I will note that I got a few quotes and the prices varied pretty significantly.
Doing 500 SF at the price I paid (November 2022) would be about $1,330, and you don't need to crawl around under the cabin for a day.....
After using our place for 2 winters 2" was plenty for a occasional use cabin....The floor is so much warmer, very happy with our decision....Good luck...
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Grizzlyman
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# Posted: 15 Jan 2024 16:17
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jsahara24
Thanks. I would hire it out if possible but being where it’s located it’s not unfortunately. That’s actually cheaper than the diy kit. That’s why I’m wondering why the kits are so darned expensive. A good part of that 2.66 is labor and with the kit is 0% labor and similar price/more expensive.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 15 Jan 2024 16:25
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On my '83-'84 12x24 build I put 1" blue DOW below the joist tops by running quick and dirty furring strips, then the deck. Wish I had done more but......
I cant abide the price of the spray foam.....that is, I dont like feeling like Ive just been robbed for something that is mostly plastic and air.
Can you scare up surplus rigid foam from around your area, put down a work surface to quick and easy cut to size (for the work of it Id try to do 2") and have someone 'nimble' underneath to push em in place and maybe use a nail gun to spike in some support strips?
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jsahara24
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# Posted: 15 Jan 2024 18:34 - Edited by: jsahara24
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Quoting: Grizzlyman Thanks. I would hire it out if possible but being where it’s located it’s not unfortunately. That’s actually cheaper than the diy kit. That’s why I’m wondering why the kits are so darned expensive. A good part of that 2.66 is labor and with the kit is 0% labor and similar price/more expensive.
Gotcha....well I will say that there were 3 guys and they knocked it out really quick....Much quicker than I expected...and they are probably buying the material in a large quanitity...and running tight profit margins to get the work.....
I don't know how good the cans of spray foam are, like Kraken or similar? Looks like you would need 50 cans to do 500 sf at 2 inches, $800....That is probably a theoretical yield too...
I know you probably don't want to do this job once let alone twice, but I wonder if you could add a second coat if a thinner coat didn't get you what you wanted?
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travellerw
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# Posted: 15 Jan 2024 22:12
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Its all about scale and packaging I think. Pros are buying much bigger kits and I'm guessing the containers are returned to the manufacturer for refill once empty. DIY kits are completely disposable. The gun, hose, tanks.. all garbage (and must be factored into the cost of the kit).
Then you have the retail markup (HomeDepot ain't putting stuff on their shelves for free). I would expect there to be a %40 markup on those kits (they don't sell a lot and they take up a fair amount of space).
The reality is once you factor the costs and the fact that the pros will ALWAYS do a better job than a first time DIYer, it just doesn't make sense most of the time. Unfortunately if you are in a situation where its your only option, then you are kinda stuck (I am too).
Have you considered cut rigid foam stuck between the joists with "canned" foam around the outsides?
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Brettny
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2024 06:09
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Have you thought about putting say 2in foam ontop of your subfloor?
Why do you need to solidify and deaded the floor? Joists to small?
I did 4in poly iso in between my roof rafters and sealed around them with cans of foam. If you do this from the under side get the pro foam gun. 4in foam was really nice to work with and only $10 for a 4'x4' sheet.
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Grizzlyman
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2024 09:14
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Brettny floor is already finished as is interior of the cabin.
No- joists sized perfectly. Floor very solid. …not wobbly or anything- deadining just an ancillary benefit with 3 kids stomping around…
jsahara24
Kraken cans are intriguing… never seen canned spray foam meant to actual cover large voids. Looks like it has a fan spray tip and is actually meant for wall/ceiling/floor cavities… I’ll have to look into that more…
travellerw
Rigid foam with sprayed edges seems like doubling up the work.. . Not that I cut corners.. but if there’s a spray alternative I think that is better all around- less work, better r value, better seal… and I THINK the critters are less apt to get into sprayed foam than underneath or between layers of rigid foam.
Back to original question- any other alternatives anyone is aware of?
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2024 10:04
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I used Foam Sheets in my construction and sealed everything in with low expansion foam (commercial gun & product).
My walls have 5-1/2" Solid EPS-II High Density foam.
My Roof has 4"+3.5" Sheet PolyISO between rafters.
Under & up the sides of my Frost Protected Slab Foundation has 4" thick HD-XPS Foam.
I purchased my foam sheets from a Commercial Roofer which is FAR CHEAPER than any BigBox or other retailer !
Note, when contacting commercial roofers (people who do commercial buildings like warehouses & shopping malls), they generally do not want to talk to "public" but if you ask them about "Take Off Insulation" that will likely perk their ears up (pending on your region & the recycling rules). Here,m by law, they MUST recycle any & all insulation, especially foams, they have to ship & pay to do so in general... If you are willing to buy "previously enjoyed good foam" you can get amazing savings.
IE: When I bought my stuff
Thick EPS-II 4'x4'x5-1/2" Lapped sheets. $10 ea.
XPS Foam was 2'x4'x4" lapped sheets $10 ea.
PolyISO 4'x8'x4" were $8 ea
PolyISO 4'x8'x3.5" were $7 ea
NONE of that was available in "Retail Land" and I do not think that it is available in retail even today. What BigBox charges is roughly 500% markup as well...
Do check around with Commercial Roofers !
Hope it helps, Good Luck.
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2024 10:13
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Dang that is expensive! I searched around a little and found nothing cheaper.
We are fortunate that in the San Luis valley, CO, there are 5 spray foam contractors. We had our underside done fall 2020, 575sqft @ 4" - closed cell foam for $1,100. I guess we got a deal! Had the perimeter sprayed the following year... huge difference for the warmth of the floors and the perimeter spray helped to stabilize the temperature under the cabin. No water freezing anymore!
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Grizzlyman
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2024 10:42
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Nobadays
That’s a great price!- I wish it were that simple. I’ve built the whole cabin myself, but have ZERO interest in messing around with large quantities of spray foam on my back in crawlspace on an island. Lol. As mentioned, I did check around w contractors and most said that due to location and inability to move a trailer anywhere near the place, they’d have to use froth paks anyways… so that’s not much help and is basically back to square one.
The “kraken†cans intrigue me…I’ll have to research unless someone here has experience with them?
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FishHog
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2024 11:15
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I did blue foam insulation then spray foam cans around the perimeter to hold and seal. Fitting foam takes some time but wasn’t hard
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travellerw
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2024 11:23
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Quoting: Grizzlyman Rigid foam with sprayed edges seems like doubling up the work.. . Not that I cut corners.. but if there’s a spray alternative I think that is better all around- less work, better r value, better seal… and I THINK the critters are less apt to get into sprayed foam than underneath or between layers of rigid foam.
Definitely, more work, but more affordable. Especially if you can source some used insulation (loads on Facebook Marketplace). You push it tight to the subfloor so there is no gap for critters, then use an industrial gun to do the perimeter, gluing it into place (low expanding foam).
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Brettny
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2024 19:52
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Quoting: Steve_S NONE of that was available in "Retail Land" and I do not think that it is available in retail even today. What BigBox charges is roughly 500% markup as well
Big box stores are nearly the worst place to buy stuff. My $10 a sheet of 4" 4x4' was new 2023 price in ny. Sorry but I need more so arnt willing to give up my source just yet. I can say I bought it online though.
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spencerin
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# Posted: 16 Jan 2024 22:29
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It looks like you already know what your options are, and the pros and cons of each. My *guess* why DIY spray foam is so expensive is due to the fact that they're shipping 2 containers full of chemicals under pressure. Not to mention that contents are sensitive to temperature, so there could be some performance issues/product loss under warranty risks associated with it as well.
It may be pricier than you want, but it's a one-and-done deal. How about do one layer, give it a year or two, and see how it performs before doing a second layer? Maybe you find one was enough, and save $ that way. Or, if not, at least you've spread the cost out over a couple of years.
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Grizzlyman
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# Posted: 17 Jan 2024 11:04 - Edited by: Grizzlyman
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As far as I can tell the kraken cans seem to have mixed reviews. Some good some bad- which isn’t a surprise. it’s hard to trust reviews when people are all over the board… I imagine it’s hard to use for the novice, but inadequate for the professional… may be good for what it is though… I found a few YouTube video/reviews and am just not sure. If it’s a decent solution it’s very cost effective.
I think I’m going to pick up one of the kraken cans and try on some scrap plywood and report back.i might burn $20 on a can… but I don’t want to commit to something likebuying a case if it’s not going to be a good solution.
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jsahara24
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# Posted: 17 Jan 2024 18:13
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Quoting: Grizzlyman I think I’m going to pick up one of the kraken cans and try on some scrap plywood and report back.i might burn $20 on a can… but I don’t want to commit to something likebuying a case if it’s not going to be a good solution.
That makes sense to me, be interested to hear your thoughts....I think there are some other companies making it as well, not sure if one is getting better reviews or not...
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Brettny
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# Posted: 17 Jan 2024 19:31
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Home depot sells the same foam in a can for $13 or 14 for a 16oz can vs the more expensive kracken for $24 for 20oz. All those pro foam guns use the same threads so the gun isnt anything special and I dont believe the foam is either.
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Grizzlyman
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# Posted: 17 Jan 2024 20:42
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Brettny
Which one? Do you have a link? All I could find on their website was for gaps /cracks or windows.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 18 Jan 2024 09:52
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That's what the kracken cans are correct?
https://www.homedepot.com/s/Great%20stuff%20pro?NCNI-5
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Grizzlyman
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# Posted: 18 Jan 2024 11:51
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I don’t think so. They are made specifically for foaming a wide surface/ void in the same manner that a professional spray foam job would do. I would imagine it’s probably pressurized to a higher degree and is maybe a little more viscous to allow a wider spray pattern with a fan tip.
However the expansion is a lot less than professional and again not sure if the product is sub par- it definitely is when compared to a pro job, but may be decently good for what it is.
https://youtube.com/shorts/6icpY2IPKYY?si=KtUWJdEDSn2l9nuz
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Brettny
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# Posted: 18 Jan 2024 18:59
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Wow didnt know such a thing exists. It does look like it's all in the tip though.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 18 Jan 2024 19:19
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I wouldnt waste it on a test piece, find somewhere on the cabin you want insulation and give it a go.
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ThisOldCabinNJ
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# Posted: 19 Jan 2024 08:19
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for what it's worth: that Frothpack kit at $1000 for 600 SF at 1" = about $20 per cubic foot.
which seems to be the going rate for professionally installed spray foam.
I realize you're off-grid but if you can get a box-truck onto your property, you might be able to swing a professional install???
So I just had my cabin professionally spray foamed. ~4" in the roof rafters of the cabin & front porch and ~2" in the gable walls. The only thing I had to do was prep the area and write them a check  but it cost about the same amount as the kit you mentioned, $20/cubic foot. Of course, I did have a much larger area to foam so the volume helps with cost but they were in and out in 1 day.
I did of course put up my own plastic around the inside perimeter of the cabin because I'm super anal-retentive and didn't trust them to do as meticulous of a job masking off the log walls as I would have done. I honestly I think it was worth every penny but I also had limited options. If I wanted to use a batt insulation I would have had to use a lesser R-value batt and 'frame in' an air channel to bring air from the eave to the ridge. They 'claim' you don't need this with spray foam.
Anyhow, If I had the time and resources I would love to do the bays between the floor joists. I'd spray foam EVERYTHING if I could LOL. For the first time in the 2 years i've been remodeling this cabin, I was able to get it over 70°f in the winter - with just the wood stove. Woo Hoo.
Just wanted to share this. I realize you have other restrictions that might not allow for a professional install. If you do this yourself, you will definitely want a tyvek suit, respirator and plenty of other PPE.
Best of Luck!
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Brettny
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# Posted: 19 Jan 2024 09:09
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Hes on a island.
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Grizzlyman
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# Posted: 19 Jan 2024 09:18 - Edited by: Grizzlyman
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ThisOldCabinNJ
Thanks. Agree that’s a superior option- which again makes me wonder why these kits are so expensive. There are very few things where diy is the same as a professional…
I am however on an island with rocky bluffs for shorelines- so that’s a no-go.
FWIW. There is a really good option available with “spray-ezâ€- but unfortunately not for my project. . This seems to be more of a commercial grade spray from what I can tell- and the foam is relatively cheap at $1.20 per bf for refill cartridges. It uses a compressor vs a pressurized tank. It seems to be superior in expansion and overall quality from what I can tell. HOWEVER- you need two things. 1 the gun. This is $700. Once you have that though- then the foam is $1.20 per bf. But they do market it in a “diy kit†that includes the gun and first cartridge for less than the cost of separate components. The second thing you need is a big a$$ air compressor that can pump out 100 psi @ 12cfm.
If you amortize the gun across board footage if you have a large project, this may be your best option for a diy project. Around 2,500 bf is where this makes financial sense. (Assuming you have the big compressor). That’s really not that much space as it’s only 625 sq ft @4†thick.
Froth pak and DAP comes in around $1.50- 1.67 per bf.
There are a few other off brand “froth pak†foam kits like tigerfoam, handifoam, and foam it green. Those are just a little above $1.20 per bf. From my limited research it seems to me foam it green may be best value.
Kraken cans are .98c per bf but again I question the quality vs the others. Reviews are mixed.
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spencerin
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# Posted: 19 Jan 2024 22:50
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There are several videos on YouTube for Kraken and related products. To me, it looks like the Kraken-type products < Froth Pak/DAP < pro application. I think the benefit to the Kraken-type products is ease of application. Not that they don't work, I'm sure they do, but probably not as effectively as the others.
Since you can't get a pro there, I'd get the 2-part DIY kit if I were you.
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Grizzlyman
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# Posted: 4 Sep 2024 01:25
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Well I bit the bullet tonight and bought the foam. I did buy the actual froth pak not the other brands. Froth pak 620 board ft to cover about 440 sq ft. Assuming I get the actual 620 out of it it means i can get about an inch and a half on most of the floor. Which would be r-10.
Not cheap by any means- I did look at some of the “other” brands like tiger foam, foam it green, and Vega bond. The tiger foam and foam it green appeared much cheaper but then they charge pretty hefty shipping fees of 150-250. So the menards froth pak turned out to the cheapest.
My plan is to do a base 1/2 (which expands to 1”) on the whole subfloor. Then I’ll go back to the center of the cabin and put another 1/4-1/2 on in the center areas where we walk more until the pak runs out. Not going to put the additional 1/2 under the cabinets, or stove area. That should allow me to get a pretty even extra 1/2 or so on most of it.
Bought the heavy duty Walter white coverall suit, respirator, additional head coverage, and safety glasses.
Going to crawl under the cabin and give it a go this weekend now that the bugs are all gone.
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 4 Sep 2024 14:02
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I have not used these packs but have heard a lot of stories. From what I was told there are several things to help make it go smoother...
Definitely have help! Someone to move the canisters around and help route the hose.
Keep moving, keep spraying. If you stop for even a minute or two the nozzle will plug and you will have to replace it... hence the help.
Have extra nozzles handy!
This was the advice given me when I was considering using the DIY kits.
Good luck, you can do it!
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Grizzlyman
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# Posted: 4 Sep 2024 16:51
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Yeah it says if stopping for 30 seconds it wil need to be replaced. Kit comes with 8 nozzles so that should help. I’m going to get another pack for good measure.
On my back I figure I can do two “bays” between joists from one position- And probably 5 linear ft before need to repoisition. I’m going to try to clear out a bit of a path so I can slide once I’ve covered the area to a new position- but it’s very uneven and lots of rocks. The ground surface prep beforehand is key.
Hose is 15 ft. I’m going to try do do it in quadrants as my center beam limits ease of movement between sides. I figure if put tanks in center of cabin then 15 ft to corners should be doable- won’t have to reposition tanks and can do entire quadrant at once.
We’ll see. It’s gonna suck!!!
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