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Scholten
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# Posted: 10 Jan 2024 07:26am
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Hi all.
I'm a journeyman from BC. My wife and I bought a 16x20 Cabin at a big church camp on Hamilton Ontario county with the roof falling in, and the floors sagging, and ants in the walls... thankfully it was cheap.
We saw that if we rebuilt we'd need to get a full foundation. Instead we fixed up the floor, ran full length support beams, and got in on a renovation permit.
Speaking with the inspector I submitted our plans that show 2x4 walls, and have the addition on the side indicating 2x4 walls. It's a seasonal camp, only open 6 months of the summer. All the 400ish cottages are drained and winterized.
Now the roof is on, the addition is on, electrical is roughed (under the electrician's permit), and as we get stopped by the need for framing inspection, I'm getting shaky nervous. I read on various sites that only 2x6 walls are allowed for cottages now.
We were in a rush with a new baby, a tight crunch before heading to Kenya to work, and were assuming you could rebuild the walls as was originally constructed (2x4) on a renovation permit.
The plan was approved by the inspector, but he's not ever come by. I'm afraid to put the questions into email form, less he get afraid of the liability on himself with an email chain.
I specified the 2x4 walls for the addition, but wasn't as clear on the main house wall replacements. I'm terrified I've really mucked up.
Can I get some advice?
Thanks
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ICC
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# Posted: 10 Jan 2024 11:36am - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: Scholten Speaking with the inspector I submitted our plans that show 2x4 walls, and have the addition on the side indicating 2x4 walls.
So you submitted drawings that indicated 2x4 wall framing for all the work to be done. Did the permit/inspection dept return a set to you with their approval stamp? Sometimes they indicate (red pencil is used a lot) changes that need to be done for the approval stamp.
If the above is true then you should have no worry. If you do not have a stamped approved plan showing 2x4 wall framing, then that is another story with an unknown ending.
In any event, since there is an inspection and you want to be approved you need to call and set an inspection date and get that over with.
FWIW, on a small structure there is usually no structural need for 2x6 wall framing. Any requirement to meet the energy code (if applicable) is the usual reason for 2x6 wall framing. No batt-type insulation can meet the energy code in a 2x4 wall. So most people go to 2x6 wall framing. However, a 2x4 framed wall can meet energy codes if sheet insulation is applied over the wall (sheets of foam or other rigid insulation panels).
-izzy
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 10 Jan 2024 12:23pm
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In Ontario, a NEW build would require 2x6 walls & 2x8 Roof per our code. A Reno/Repair allows for direct replacement of what was as was BUT that is up to inspectors discretion and "must" have met the previous code when built.
Extensions or additions are considered "New Builds" and therefore subject to code requirements. You also MUST adhere to the nailing schedule etc.
Internal non-structural walls can be 2x4 no problem, if there is a doorway etc a proper header will be required.
There was see issues with regards to stud spacing with regards to 2x4, at one point they insisted on no more than 16OC spacing and were not allowing 24OC with 2x4.
NOTE that Last Year, the "Ford Establishment" made some changes to minimums & requirements. Some good parts is they opened up things for smaller buildings making a few things easier BUT for city in-fill housing there are several extra "little hoops".
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 10 Jan 2024 03:53pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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I am with ICC, if they OKd it, then prob fine.
It was a repair of an existing structure, not a new section or addition. Also, in my area, it needs to meet insulation requirements but only if it will be heated. If no heating is shown on plans, then you may be OK with the 2X4. My cabin area wants R21 in the walls, so its 2X6. (woodstove can appear later)
Kicker is, total cost (difference) isnt even that much when doing 2X4 vs 2X6, 2x6 is just a better route to go either way.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 10 Jan 2024 06:42pm
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Steve, are you sure about those stud requirements? Table 9.23.10.1 from the Ontario building code (Size and Spacing of Studs) lists 2x4 as an acceptable stud size for several exterior wall configurations. I downloaded it today from
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/120332 It is the first image below. The second image below shows dates.
It appears to be current. The document is downloadable in *.doc form from
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/docs/120332_e.doc
Or perhaps there is an update or an addendum I did not locate?
For those not into metric measurements, 38mm x 89mm is a 2x4, an actual 1.5 x 3.5 inches.
38 x 140 is a 2x6, actual 1.5 x 5.5 inches
38 x 64 is a 2x3, actual 1.5 x 2.5 inches
Spacing of 406mm is 16", 610mm is 24", and 305mm is 12"
Column 5 indicates the maximum stud height without extra bracing. 3 meters = 10 feet.
Those figures are pretty much the same as set forth in the US IRC codebook.
It would appear that a 2x4 wall on 16" centers is structural code for walls supporting a roof with attic space and one upper floor.
IF we are sizing wall studs to meet the energy code with batt insulation in the stud bays, then we would need to upsize the studs, OR use some other form of insulation as I mentioned above.
I'd like to add a note. In the US, most states allow the use of REScheck. In some states, there are jurisdictions which mandate its use. REScheck is a computer program that allows the trading of more insulation in one area to counterbalance less insulation value in another. Installing larger windows than what would be normal can be countered by adding more wall or attic/roof insulation. Canada has something similar. I know it is used for new construction in Winnipeg, but I am not sure how prevalent its use is elsewhere.
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 10 Jan 2024 06:57pm
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If it's on the plans I wouldnt even give it a second thought. Is there even a requirement for insulation in a seasonal cabin?
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909
Member
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# Posted: 10 Jan 2024 08:10pm
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It's always better to ask for forgiveness, than to ask for permission. I get that you're nervous, but I wouldn't go emailing him a million questions. Just relax, take a breath and carry on. You may never see him or hear from him.
That being said, I used 2 x 6's on my new build. I also used 2 x 10's for the floors and rafters. I like it warm and prior to the winter I was keeping the place warm with a few candles.
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ICC
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# Posted: 11 Jan 2024 11:06am
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Quoting: 909 better to ask for forgiveness, than to ask for permission.
Not a critique of the statement or author, just some background.
I see that quote tossed about a lot. There is a story behind it. Admiral Grace Hopper (US Navy) said that. Proper interpretation requires knowing what she was talking about.
She was an officer in a large organization. If you’ve ever worked at a company or an organization that operates at that kind of global scale, it’s very hard to get permission to do anything, because you need to go up three or four levels in the hierarchy above your boss to get permission.
So “Ask forgiveness, not permission†meant:
Do the right thing within the organization, whether or not they know it. That way you can help the people that you work for. It did not mean, go ahead and do something sketchy and then if caught ask for forgiveness.
-izzy
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Scholten
Member
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# Posted: 13 Jan 2024 02:55pm
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A huge thanks to everyone here!
I realized the intent was insulation. In a pinch I'll rigid foam the exterior to get up to R value I think. Worst case scenario I change a few interior doorways to allow a 2x2 wall offset from the 2x4 studs, to enable even better insulation value.
- Ben
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