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Girm100
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# Posted: 24 Sep 2023 11:16pm
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Hello,
I am currently designing a cabin in Canada and am having a hard time finding any resources on some of the nuance details specifically related to running a cabin 3 seasons full-out but also semi regular winter use. So systems or designs or tricks that allow for reasonable quick habitation for a weekend after being frozen solid and then shutting down again quickly. Utility costs are high so I’d ideally want to not keep it heated all winter long. Could be a specific waterline drainage system, system to turn on heating remotely, super high efficient heating to allow for continuous warmth, wood stove heat circulation systems, anything like that. Any help would be much appreciated
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Brettny
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# Posted: 25 Sep 2023 08:13am
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The best thing you can do is drain and or blow the lines out in the winter. Heat tape and heat dosnt work if you loose power.
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rpe
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# Posted: 25 Sep 2023 08:57am
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We use our cabin as you state - 3 seasons plus a few winter visits of 2-5 day duration. We drain all water systems in the fall, auger a hole in the ice for winter water, and use the outhouse exclusively. We do have a grey water system to dispose of kitchen water. Waterless HepVo P-trap eliminators work great at avoiding issues in that area.
For hot water in the kitchen, we use a large insulated coffee urn beside the sink. It gets filled with lake water, and is plugged in to get water up to comfortable temperature for washing.
Heat is by wood stove only. No 'wifi' pre-warm options here, unless our friends from across the lake light the fire for us a few hours before arrival.
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Alaskajohn
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# Posted: 25 Sep 2023 09:04am
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You might be able to find something useful at the cold climate housing resource center website.
http://cchrc.org/
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Aklogcabin
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# Posted: 25 Sep 2023 10:59am
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We use our cabin year round. Use snogos in the winter. We have a woodstove. Crank it up and it really doesn't take very long to get comfortable. We can open up the door too and let the fire warm the room n us. While we, me n beautiful wife anyhows, snuggle up on the sofa. We will go for weeks.
We use coleman gas lanterns and they give off a lot of heat also. Run a small generator that charges up a couple car batteries for charging phone or computer every few days.
Now go build a cabin and start making new memories
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 25 Sep 2023 05:58pm - Edited by: gcrank1
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Can you get LP in to the location?
Ours is 3 season and occasional winter short term use.
Use LP for fridge until winter then food outside
Use LP furnace (say 30K btu min) to fire up right away while you nurse a woodstove to heating
Have a basic Lead Acid 12v deep cycle (think 'trolling motor) battery on a small scale solar for LED lights and usb chargers (both are very low draw). I use a small 300w PSW inverter to do 12vdc to 120vac that has intergral usb port. The 120vac makes wiring LED lights super simple on small gauge wires and cheap pull chain Edison base light bulb sockets at point of use.
I also have some LED usb port rechargeable lanterns for emergency use. If a car is reasonably close you can recharge them, and phones, off that.
Plumbing? For us, why bother. Havent needed plumbing for cabin living for 40yrs.
3 season is diy compost toilet, winter is basic 'bucket loo'
3 season is utility water off metal roof into filtered rain barrels, winter is haul in water. You will likely use more water for utility than potable. When you haul it you get frugal.
Note you most likely have to drain the rain barrels for winter and keep then out of the snow slide from the roof.
This is pre mid-20th cent. living, the way many of our folks grew up and the way much of the less developed world still lives today.
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Girm100
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# Posted: 25 Sep 2023 07:17pm
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Thanks for the response! Forgive my ignorance, but I don’t even know what “LP†stands for. Propane?
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Girm100
Member
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# Posted: 25 Sep 2023 07:18pm
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First glance seems like a great resource. Thanks!
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Girm100
Member
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# Posted: 25 Sep 2023 07:19pm
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Starting to realize my skills here are lacking and am not actually replying directly to posts. Suffice it to say, I’m really grateful for all of you taking the time to respond.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 25 Sep 2023 07:45pm
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Yes, LP/LPG = liquified petroleum gas; ie, propane.
This is a forum, not a 'live chat', you are responding to posts but it can take a while for some of us to find time to get back here.
Also yes, a wonderful resource, well worth coming back around at your convenience 
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travellerw
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# Posted: 25 Sep 2023 10:55pm
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Ok.. We have a cabin in Northern Alberta that we use all 4 seasons. This will be our third winter.
Some details on the cabin (you can search my username to see all my posts). Its a 16X28 Gambrel roof on piers that are 18" above grade. Walls are 2X6 with R21. Ceiling is R21 with extra R8 and then an air channel directly under the sheahting, with metal roof on top. I did a sandwich for the floor, its 23/32 OSB, then 1.5" of pink foamular, then 23/32 of OSB.
Last year and the year before we stayed in the cabin at -40C (without windchill). Our wood stove easily easily kept the cabin at a comfortable +20C.
We have waterlines (shower, toilet, bathroom sink, kitchen sink) run through the cabin that we will use till Canadian Thanksgiving (our first year using full water). We will then winterize the lines with RV antifreeze. We will continue to use the toilet (an RV toilet) over the winter. The drain on the toilet has heat tape and insulation. The toilet dumps into an above ground tank under the cabin. This will be our first year using the toilet and tank over winter (poop only), so we will see how it works out. People in the area say it will be fine for the 5 or 6 weekends we use it over the winter. Room temp water (manually poured in the toilet) plus the heat tape means the effluent hits the tank warm and should spread out. We will see, if the frozen mountain of poo builds up it will be pretty obvious.
We bring drinking water in the winter. We use a cooler with snow that we set inside the door (can't put it outside at below -20C or EVERYTHING will freeze in it). A standard cooler is fine for 4 adults over a 2 day weekend. Cooking is mostly done on the wood stove in the winter. Propane when its not cold enough for the wood stove. We have a heat pump that we use instead of the wood stove until about -8C. We run it off a 2000W generator. We could run the wood stove for free, but its a little big for the cabin and warmer than -8C it puts out too much heat. Sure, we could open a window, but the heat pump is more consistent and keeps the cabin at a constant temp. The wood stove is more of a baking and freezing experience at those temps.
I'm sure there are things I'm missing. So please ask if anything pops in your head!
In the words of my son last winter. "Dad, you can't call this a cabin! Once its heated up, its no different than being at home in our house. Just smaller."
P.S. Our biggest worry is snow removal. The parts of the driveway we are responsible for is 300 yards long. Its a PIA to remove that amount of snow. Our first 2 years we had an old 1940s tractor with a rear blade. It was not adequate so we upgraded to a skidsteer with bucket last year. It worked, but was not ideal. This year we bought a snow pusher attachment for the skidsteer (we will see how it works).
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Brettny
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2023 08:50am
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Quoting: gcrank1 Use LP furnace (say 30K btu min) to fire up right away while you nurse a woodstove to heating Have a basic Lead
How big is the cabin your helping get up to temp with a 30kbtu? I always thought this was a good idea. A propane heater just for this purpose is going to be our second heating upgrade. First being a wood stove.
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Tim_Ohio
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2023 09:13am - Edited by: Tim_Ohio
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Don't forget that any traps in plumbing lines hold water. You will need to drain those as well. Some have a drain built into them. However, you will have to plan in a kind of access to any of them that might be in a floor, such as a shower base. Even if it is a gray water system, most proper plumbing will include traps.
As for water lines, I'd do the minimum possible with PEX. It's known for resistance to cracking if it does freeze a little. I'd also be aggressive with pitch to any freeze out drains where you are going to remove the water in the lines. Remember, that stuff will droop when installed if it's not fastened in enough places.
PEX is nice, since you could probably run a drain valve inside, then an extension off of it through a floor or wall where it will exit and drain outside when you want to clean it out. Then leave the drain valve open during the dormant period. Have a screen or something off the end of that pipe to keep wildlife of any kind plugging it up, or chewing on it. Rodents like to eat PEX, so take precautions.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2023 09:46am
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Brett, ours is 16x24 with a full cath ceiling. When we tried the wood stove it came with (with a bad stack that wouldnt draft well) it was hit or miss on if, or how long, it would take to get it really running. The LP wall furnace starts kicking out 30K btu's within minutes of lighting while we do other things.
Works so well that we pulled the wood stove.
Btw, doing the proper insulated chimney would have cost me $700-1000, that buys a lot of propane here.
ymmv
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travellerw
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2023 12:17pm
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Quoting: Tim_Ohio Don't forget that any traps in plumbing lines hold water
In 20 years I have never put anything in my p-traps on my RV and never had an issue. P-traps have room for the ice to expand (both up and down the pipe). I'm not the only one either, no one I know around here does anything to their p-traps and I have never heard of an issue. Of course draining them won't hurt anything, but I just think its an unnecessary step (and antifreeze has got so expensive I don't want to waste it).
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Tim_Ohio
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2023 12:23pm
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@ travellerw: My thought is that if you come back to stay and the traps are frozen, you won't be able to use the plumbing right away. It will have to thaw before it can be useful.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2023 12:51pm
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Yeah that!
Frozen adds a whole new meaning to P Trap
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Brettny
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2023 01:39pm
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Quoting: gcrank1 , doing the proper insulated chimney would have cost me $700-1000
That's prety cheap. For me in 8in and 18' total I'm coming in close to $1300. Once I get some Insulation in I'm pulling the trigger on the chimney setup. Theres just nothing like wood heat.
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travellerw
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2023 02:02pm
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Quoting: Brettny That's prety cheap. For me in 8in and 18' total I'm coming in close to $1300. Once I get some Insulation in I'm pulling the trigger on the chimney setup. Theres just nothing like wood heat.
Is there a reason to use fully insulated chimney? Ours is just standard black pipe up to the ceiling pass through box. It changes to insulated there, but only 2 lengths. The black pipe is cheap enough that we just replace it every 2 years and run a brush up the insulated pieces.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2023 02:32pm - Edited by: gcrank1
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Trav's is what I had intended, and that was back in 2020 before the inflation/currency devaluation surge.
It was an insulated dbl wall Canadian made product that we had used in our '83-'84 build that gave NO issues in the 30+ years of use.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2023 04:34pm
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Typicaly a stove manufacturer will set a spec on how much stove pipe (the black stuff) you can use before transferring to insulated pipe. That spec is usualy 8'. This is due to the chimney cooling and allowing creosote to form.
The chimney pipe is actualy the cheap stuff. The things that really add up are the ceiling support box, single to insulated pipe adapter, rafter support mount, exterior flashing, storm collar and cap.
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Ptomaine
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2023 04:59pm
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Just adding my experience with propane heat. I have a 30,000 btu Williams direct vent wall heater; the type that does not use chimney pipe; just a "mushroom" vent directly through the wall. The book said the 20,000 btu unit would work for my 400 sqft cabin, but as it is only has R13 insulation in 2x4 walls, I went a size bigger. The heater easily keeps the cabin comfortable when -25° F outside. I did swap the cheap bimetal thermostat that came with it for with a programmable digital unit. This gave me a much tighter temperature range.
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travellerw
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2023 04:59pm
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Quoting: Brettny That spec is usualy 8'
Holy.. 8'.. Wow, I think my spec was 30'. They suggested I use double wall pipe, but said it wasn't required. My black pipe is about 20' and when we replaced it after 2 years of use it had just a small amount of creosote. I could have cleaned it, but it was cheap enough I just replaced it (plus cleaning is more work as I would require a lift). Standard black pipe is about $20 for a 6ft section here. With the elbows and sealant its like $125 to replace everything up to the ceiling box. Renting a lift is like $300/day.
I guess I'm glad I didn't have those requirements or it may have changed my mind!
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Brettny
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2023 07:57pm
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Quoting: travellerw Holy.. 8'.. Wow, I think my spec was 30'
You sure that's not the spec for the complete chimney length? The stove I have in my house is 8' of single wall. Suggested minimum chimney length of 16'
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travellerw
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# Posted: 26 Sep 2023 11:05pm
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Quoting: Brettny You sure that's not the spec for the complete chimney length?
%100 I had the local dealer helping me with everything (I bought all the expensive stuff from them). This is the only wording about single wall pipe in the manual.
"Try to run the chimney inside the building for as much length as you can. A tall and warm
chimney will produce a good draft;"
Manual here "https://www.drolet.ca/file/45145A.pdf"
I can't imagine, 8' is crazy short for single wall. Hell, the wood stove in my brothers garage is double that and he had it WETT certified. His was actually MUCH shorter with 2 90s, but they would only approve it if he extended it and got rid of the 90s. So he is about 15' of single wall black pipe all WETT certified!
Actually, I googled it for numerous brands sold around here and I can't find a single one with a requirement of 8' (most list nothing for single wall length inside the structure). There is one or two that require double wall (not insulated), but nothing about that kind of length. All the ones with double wall requirements are super high efficient stoves.
Ours performs amazing with tons of draft (never smoke in the building). Before we removed the scaffolding I check the pipe at the top with a good fire. It was WAY too hot to touch so I highly doubt creosote is a problem (confirmed when I replaced it).
I wonder if its a local code in your area.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2023 05:57am
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No not code a suggestion via Vermont castings. Both for my early 90s resolute( the smallest stove they sell) and the Defiant( biggest one they sell.
Paragraph 3 second to last sentence. It makes sence, the hotter the chimney the less creosote. I clean my stove pipe 1x a year its vertical through the roof.
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travellerw
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2023 12:46pm
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Quoting: Brettny It makes sence, the hotter the chimney the less creosote.
This is why my supplier suggested double wall pipe. Means you can clean your chimney less. However, based on the number of fires we have a year it just wasn't worth it (double wall pipe is 4X the price). So instead I just replace it all and clean the top portion from the inside off scaffold.
I have to rent a lift this year for siding, so I may just clean it since I have the lift, then put off replacing for another year.
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Girm100
Member
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2023 01:07pm
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Has anyone come up with any heat recovery systems to “steal†some the chimney heat and distribute to other areas?
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travellerw
Member
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# Posted: 27 Sep 2023 01:34pm
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Quoting: Girm100 Has anyone come up with any heat recovery systems to “steal†some the chimney heat and distribute to other areas?
You are massively overthinking it. Most wood burning stoves put out so much heat that the amount of loss up the chimney is just not worth it. Not to mention the conversation Brettny and I just had about a hot chimney. If you "steal" heat and reduce the temperature of your chimney you risk creosote issues (and possible chimney fire).
Our cabin is lofted with stairs up the middle. Over the lofted area and above the wood stove we installed an industrial fan. Even running on low it will almost equalize the temps throughout the cabin (loft is 1-1.5C above mainfloor temp). It will even get the back bedroom up to temp. Running on high it will absolutely equalize all the temps, but then its like living in a wind tunnel. The thing moves an insane amount of air.
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IcutMetl
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# Posted: 11 Feb 2024 06:43pm
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Great thread- subscribed. In contract on a 3-season cabin myself that I plan on using sparingly in the winter.
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