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Gravel Rider
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# Posted: 25 Jan 2023 08:04am
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Hello everyone,
I'm in the process of buying a house on 40 acres in Pennsylvania. There is a cabin on the property, about 250 yards from the house. It hasn't been used in years, and needs a full renovation. It did have water and electricity running to it many years ago, but it was coming from another house (old family land), and both lines have been cut many years ago.
I'm debating the best way to get water out to the property. The house is on well water. Should I dig a trench 200 yards (from the barn, where there is a water supply), or have a well dug? It's heavily wooded from the barn to the cabin.
I'm worried about having enough water pressure going that far. It's about a 50 foot rise in addition to the 200 yard distance. And I'd have to rent equipment to have the trench dug. One benefit to digging a trench is that I would also run the electric underground in the same trench (12" apart, per local code). If I went the well route, I'd run the electric above ground.
It will need a new septic system, but that's another discussion.
I'll be doing all the work myself. I have a lot of remodel/renovation experience, including plumbing and electricity, but I've never tackled a long run like this.
And in case anyone wants to talk me out of bringing water to the cabin, even though it is close to the house, we do definitely want water, regardless of the work or costs associated with it. ;)
We have a lot of other projects around the new house that will take precedence, so the cabin won't get done until next year at the earliest... Though I may put a new roof on it this year, as I'm surprised the old roof is holding out water.
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 25 Jan 2023 08:22am
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Water pressure loss will be 1psi per 2.31 feet of rise, not taking into account friction loss in the pipe. Friction loss can be kept down by over sizing the pipe.
A lot of the answer comes down not only how many psi at the barn but also what the flow rate is. Less flow rate, more loss of pressure. Google friction loss calculators.
A 600' run will likely need a pressure booster but wells are $$$. It seems the ability to run water and power in one trench (electrical line loss is another issue), cost of pipe and a booster would likely be way less than a new well.
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Tim_Ohio
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# Posted: 25 Jan 2023 09:02am
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Remember, the water system will have to be frost proof in one way or another. Keep this in mind and either have a way to winterize it easily, or to keep the system warm enough not to freeze. Or, perhaps you plan to rent it, and keep it heated all the time. I don't know. It's just something people don't think about. I plumbed a system with drain plugs to allow it to be winterized if I decided not to keep it warm through the winter. The plugs could be left removed and the water drained by gravity, rather then having to blow out the lines.
Tim_Ohio
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Irrigation Guy
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# Posted: 25 Jan 2023 09:30am - Edited by: Irrigation Guy
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Quoting: Nobadays Water pressure loss will be 1psi per 2.31 feet of rise, not taking into account friction loss in the pipe. Friction loss can be kept down by over sizing the pipe. A lot of the answer comes down not only how many psi at the barn but also what the flow rate is. Less flow rate, more loss of pressure. Google friction loss calculators. A 600' run will likely need a pressure booster but wells are $$$. It seems the ability to run water and power in one trench (electrical line loss is another issue), cost of pipe and a booster would likely be way less than a new well.
This is good info. This https://www.hunterindustries.com/sites/default/files/tech_friction_loss_charts.pdf is a chart that shows pressure loss of a given size pipe at a different flow rate over 100’ of pipe. As far as overcoming the pressure loss due to elevation, if the supply is a submersible well pump the pressure switch can be adjusted up 20 lbs to make it up. And if the added 20 lbs is too much for the structure at the bottom of the hill a pressure reducer could be installed there.
All of that being said I would be more concerned about tunneling power 600’. That’s a big wire.
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Tim_Ohio
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# Posted: 25 Jan 2023 01:08pm - Edited by: Tim_Ohio
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Before you commit to putting it underground, is there any reason you can't install some black polyethylene tubing on top of the ground (temporarily) from your house system as a test? You might be able to get enough pressure and volume if your pressure tank is large enough. Or, perhaps install a larger pressure tank at the main house.
Tim
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Gravel Rider
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2023 07:49am - Edited by: Gravel Rider
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Thanks for the replies, advice, and links everyone!
After reading more on this, I do think burying the line will be a better option than digging a new well. I will oversize the line to make up for friction loss in the pipe. It sounds like just adjusting the well pump pressure would be the way to go, adding a pressure reducer for the rest of the house. I had never considered increasing the pump pressure, which makes perfect sense. This will be my first house on well water.
I will install drains on the plumbing for winterizing, which I'm very comfortable dealing with, as I have an RV that I have plenty of experience winterizing.
As far as the electric run, I can't think of a better way to do it.
I had considered using a step-up transformer at the house, and then a step-down transformer at the cabin, and then being able to run smaller (cheaper) wire, but those are two additional potential fail-points, and extra complication.
I had also considered doing a solar setup with battery bank, which I'm very comfortable doing, having already put in a rather large mobile array on my RV a couple of years ago. However, batteries are expensive, particularly if I go lithium, as are the solar panels, and then I've got to worry about SOC on my battery bank, etc. In the end, I think I'd spend as much, if not more, on a solar setup, with more hassle in the end.
I do think my best bet will be to just run some large wire, as long as my electrical load is minimal. I really think I'll only need a 15 amp breaker there, in which case 4 AWG wire should be fine (under 5% line loss).
I'll have a fridge, lights, receptacles (with probably only a TV and some phone chargers plugged in). The biggest draw might be a coffee pot.
Has anyone here done long runs of wire like this?
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2023 08:57am - Edited by: gcrank1
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The 'biggest draw', for short term, might be the c-pot but the biggest draw in 24hrs will likely be that fridge.
Led lights and usb chargers are so small as to be inconsequential; even a small tv isnt bad and for most isnt on all the time.
Rule of thumb, do an energy audit then double it (after you get some elec you keep finding things to plug in).
In our experience we got along fine with 400W array/12vdc, even better with 600W array but then trying to run a dorm sized Heier fridge was a killer, really sucked the bats down. And with it inside it makes heat, not good for us in the summer with no ac and in cool enough to cold weather no fridge is needed. After 2 good years of experience I figured Id need to have a 1200W array, much bigger scc, should be 24vdc, 2x200ah lfp bats.and a pure sine wave inverter charger. Prices change so do that math for stuff now.
Play that against the cost of doing your underground wire run.
Btw, you can make good coffee on an LP stove and also still get an LP fridge. That cuts the elec requirements a lot.
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2023 09:36am - Edited by: Nobadays
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Quoting: Gravel Rider I really think I'll only need a 15 amp breaker there, in which case 4 AWG wire should be fine (under 5% line loss).
Unfortunately it's hard to see into the future.... not too out of line to see someone cutting with a circular saw as the compressor kicks on... oops! That 15amp breaker won't like that!
If your comfortable with a 5-6% line loss, look into triplex 1/0 1/0 1/0, aluminum. Then you could supply ~30amps to a service panel with branch circuits.
I've seen that wire on ebay for pretty good prices, good enough to compete with a separate solar system.
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Gravel Rider
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2023 03:59pm
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Good thought on future needs. And it sure would be much nicer to run my saw from an outlet at the cabin, rather than running my genny all day while renovating it...
I hadn't considered using aluminum, but that does seem to be more cost-effective. Can I just attach it to the breaker box like copper? My in-laws own a beach condo, and it's all copper wire, and when I did electrical work for them, I had to use a special aluminum to copper connector. Anything like that for the breaker box?
I could really future-proof the cabin using 4/0, which doesn't seem to be all that much more expensive than 1/0 surprisingly, and have 50 amp service there.
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Gravel Rider
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2023 04:03pm
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Quoting: gcrank1 The 'biggest draw', for short term, might be the c-pot but the biggest draw in 24hrs will likely be that fridge. Led lights and usb chargers are so small as to be inconsequential; even a small tv isnt bad and for most isnt on all the time. Rule of thumb, do an energy audit then double it (after you get some elec you keep finding things to plug in). In our experience we got along fine with 400W array/12vdc, even better with 600W array but then trying to run a dorm sized Heier fridge was a killer, really sucked the bats down. And with it inside it makes heat, not good for us in the summer with no ac and in cool enough to cold weather no fridge is needed. After 2 good years of experience I figured Id need to have a 1200W array, much bigger scc, should be 24vdc, 2x200ah lfp bats.and a pure sine wave inverter charger. Prices change so do that math for stuff now. Play that against the cost of doing your underground wire run. Btw, you can make good coffee on an LP stove and also still get an LP fridge. That cuts the elec requirements a lot.
I'm really not too interested in doing solar, even if I have to pay more to run a dedicated line. If I were off the grid, it would be a no-brainer. I enjoy my solar setup on my RV, and I do have fun monitoring the battery bank SOC, etc.... But for the cabin, I want dedicated power in all weather and all seasons. And I want to be able to keep a fridge running all year without worries about a battery bank.
I do appreciate the reply and advice though.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2023 04:18pm
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You say the place used to have power but 'it was cut', how so? Did they pull the wires so you can hook up again?
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Brettny
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2023 06:44pm
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Typicaly if the power was cut to a building the building will now need a full electrical inspection and everything brought up to code prior to the power company hooking things back up. I would look into this prior to doing anything else.
Running a water line from an existing well could be the easy part in all this. A few years ago I bought 500' of 1in black poly. it wasn't terribly expensive at $360. I also bought a $99 jet pump, you could use that for a pressure boosting pump or just put in another pressure tank. All that's going to be cheaper than the single run of wire. How deep is the frost line where you are?
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Irrigation Guy
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# Posted: 26 Jan 2023 10:35pm
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I ran 400’ of 4/0 aluminum from my panel at the pole near the road to a sub panel at the cabin. I had to step it down in size to get it into a 100 amp panel. If you have decent soil and you plan to winterize the place consider a vibratory plow for installing water line and conduit. https://youtu.be/FUQKIMqM5dw I have the same machine and it will pull in up to 2†pipe
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Brettny
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# Posted: 27 Jan 2023 05:58am
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I wouldnt even put the wire in conduit. Just use direct burry wire. I have some ran right through my rocky driveway to a 100a pannel for my garage.
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Gravel Rider
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# Posted: 27 Jan 2023 07:33am
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Quoting: gcrank1 You say the place used to have power but 'it was cut', how so? Did they pull the wires so you can hook up again?
It was probably cut 20+ years ago. It ran directly from the neighbor's property to the cabin (used to be one larger property), which is further away than my house. The voltage drop had to be immense. The wire is old and unusable... Though I may scrap it for the copper.
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Brettny
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# Posted: 27 Jan 2023 09:00am
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Is there a power pole on the property?
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Nobadays
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# Posted: 27 Jan 2023 09:18am
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Quoting: Gravel Rider Can I just attach it to the breaker box like copper?
May be some special fittings for aluminum to copper but to my limited knowledge you can hook it directly to the main lugs in the service panel. I think we used dielectric grease when installing the wires. The issue with aluminum wire is it expands and contracts much more than copper so very tight connections are a must.
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Tim_Ohio
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# Posted: 27 Jan 2023 09:38am
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You'll need this stuff:
Why use antioxidant paste for aluminum wiring? Oxygen in the air reacts to the aluminum wire. The resulting oxidation causes extra resistance to the electric current. It could create an increase in heat that perhaps results in a fire. Many electricians suggest changing out aluminum wires in favor of copper wiring. However, if you’re using aluminum wiring, applying an antioxidant to the aluminum wiring makes it safer.
This treatment is available in a greased form that stops the oxygen in the air from harming the aluminum. The antioxidant paste, in some applications, is not required. Pigtailing copper to aluminum with solid wire, for instance.
The use of 63 and 65 connectors do not require antioxidant paste, because it is not listed to use on the box. Manufacturer’s instructions have the last word on what and how to use their paste.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 27 Jan 2023 10:22am - Edited by: gcrank1
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Ive been 'renovating' our prev. owner rough built off grid cabin the past 2 yrs. Cordless toolset has been GREAT (pwr driver, drill, circ saw and recip saw). If/when I need to run the 10" table saw, cut-off saw, old Dewalt contractor skil-saw, etc I start the little gen. I dont leave it run unless Im doing a bunch of cuts at one time.
Fwiw, the grid hookup some 320' to my cabin would be $3500-5000 and would cause me 'compliance issues' in our area. That is a boat I do not want to rock.
I cant get even a soft est. because the pwr co wanted $50 down (applied to the install IF you go with it,,otherwise forfeit) and a permit to 'build'. I made the est. from talking with neighbors.
Oh, they only do underground, no poles anymore. That is probably smart.
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Gravel Rider
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# Posted: 1 Feb 2023 11:33am
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Thanks for all the replies everyone. I haven't replied directly to everyone, but I have read and appreciate all the responses.
The more my wife and I talk about it, the more we (she) wants to add to the cabin.
Now I'm pretty sure that I'll just run 4/0 service line to accommodate 50 amps for a mini-split. This will make it much more useable in the summer than fans in the windows.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 8 Feb 2023 03:21pm
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Quoting: Gravel Rider I'm in the process of buying a house on 40 acres in Pennsylvania.
Lots of oil wells, make sure well waster on existing well passes drinking water test. Put that in the deal and a contingency.
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Gravel Rider
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# Posted: 9 Feb 2023 06:59am
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech Lots of oil wells, make sure well waster on existing well passes drinking water test. Put that in the deal and a contingency.
The existing well water passed water testing with no issues, fortunately. We close in 3 weeks.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 9 Feb 2023 10:37am
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Fwiw, well water can pass 'the test' and still smell and/or taste, um.....poor.
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Gravel Rider
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# Posted: 9 Feb 2023 02:31pm
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Quoting: gcrank1 Fwiw, well water can pass 'the test' and still smell and/or taste, um.....poor.
Fortunately the water at the new place tastes great. Drinking a glass of fresh sink water was part of my walk through of the house. lol
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