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CntryGal
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# Posted: 25 Aug 2022 11:34pm - Edited by: CntryGal
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[img=null]null[/img]Hey all,
Newcomer here, but I've been lurking for a while. I am getting antsy for answers that I can't find, so figured I'd get some here!
I've been trying to read as many threads as I can on what I can find in relation to Bunkies here in Ontario, Canada, to try to learn what exactly is allowed. I am waiting to hear back from my municipality, but it has been slow-going.
I understand the square footage is 108 square feet (although I read somewhere here that may be upgrading to 161? This is what I am waiting to hear back on.. because I'm unsure if I understood that post correctly).
What I'd like to confirm, is what is the square footage? Is that the base only, not including a loft? & if so, how large can the loft be? I believe I read a certain size knee wall - does that mean how tall the walls can go vertically before the roof starts? or how tall it can be to the center of the roof? I am interested in building a 9x12 with a loft & barn roof to maximize the space, and would like to learn if this is a possibility. If it has a loft, does the lower floor to loft have to be a certain height? Is there a max height for the entire building, or just as long as it is 108sq ft on the base, it can be however tall you'd like? & is there a max size for overhangs, and how many there can be?
Initially when I spoke with them and from deciding, I figured knowing the square footage was the important thing I needed to know, but as I want to start sketching plans, it turns out I have many more questions about something so seemingly simple, haha. Any help would be appreciated to clear this up, as I'm sure many of you have been down this road!
Thank you in advance 
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razmichael
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2022 01:41pm
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I’m not sure on the increase in size changes but first caution is that the 108 you are talking about is normally for an accessory building (shed) that generally requires you to have a main residence and cannot be used for sleeping/living in. So firstly I think you need to validate what you can and cannot do regarding a bunkie. Although some areas are opening up the option to build smaller houses on properties with a house (for parents etc) this is very much defined by the local municipality.
You will get lots of great advice here on building things but your local municipality is the only place you can really find out what is allowed. Ontario is generally restrictive. Best to make sure you do your own homework on the local regulations (and baseline codes) so you can have a detailed conversation with your building department - in other words don’t always just accept it when they say “no†- ask why not and where it is written down. All politely naturally - no point in making enemies. I went through this in Quebec when they said I couldn’t use an outhouse. I pointed to the recreational structures section of the provincial code and asked where in their bylaws/ regulations was is prohibited? I have an outhouse.
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2022 03:28pm
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The people who will be issuing the ticket is the people who you should talk to.
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CntryGal
Member
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# Posted: 31 Aug 2022 07:00pm
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Thank you! I finally heard back from them today with some further details - these are moreso sheds/barns - agricultural buildings - so will not need to be in addition to a primary residence, though I did teach myself much of that through research - but this forum is definitely part of that research, too, so had to ask while I waited! The square footage has indeed gone up, and I believe that was as of April, and Ontario-wide. So, that is neat to know!
Thanks again
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Houska
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# Posted: 31 Aug 2022 09:09pm
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The new 161 sq ft exception applies specifically to storage sheds. It does not apply if they have a residential use, like a bunkie. See https://www.small-cabin.com/forum/2_11333_0.html
The 108 sq ft exception (to the building code requirements) applies, as written in comments above, to structures regardless of use (but no plumbing). As to whether it can apply to a cabin or bunkie, it's complicated and locally dependent. Most Ontario organized townships will, through their zoning rules, insist on a primary building > 108 sq ft, building code and zoning rules compliant, and then the exception applies only to accessory buildings, which can only be erected afterwards. A few townships will allow a primary structure, and therefore primary use to be established, via a < 108 sq ft building; and then additional accessory structures can follow. That depends.
The sq ft limit applies to the outside footprint of a single story structure but does not include roof overhangs. Generally speaking, a (restricted ceiling height) loft is allowed but not included in the square footage. Plumbing is not allowed without a building permit.
Workarounds vary by township and zoning. And by use allowed by the zoning. Townships that only recognize a single type Residential use, without distinction as to whether full-time or seasonal, and whether urban or rural land, are hardest. Where distinct seasonal-residental is a recognized use, rules may be less stringent.
In some places, if your property is large enough, other solutions can involve establishing a "hunt camp" (as opposed to a seasonal residential cottage), or operating a managed forest with an office and outhouse as accessory buildings.
In a lot of places, but not all, the township planners and building officials are nice people who actually like to be helpful. Go and see them and talk through what you'd like, being somewhat vague and asking questions rather than speaking definitively. Let them teach you what you CAN do rather than telling them something they would prefer not to know about. If you're not comfortable doing that, are afraid you'll blow your top at them in frustration, or it's just complicated and you want more direct guidance, consult a local (private) planning consultant. If you're having trouble finding one, trawl the minutes of the local Committee of Adjustment regarding severances and zoning changes (even if you don't think you need either), to see who are the planners representing applicants as agents.
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CntryGal
Member
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# Posted: 31 Aug 2022 09:22pm
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Thank you, Houska!
The building in question is for a shed, for agricultural uses so the measurements are correct in my case.
Although, she did state all around the square footage was the same, just the height difference is different between the residential use and non-residential use. Maybe that is just my municipality, but I will have to clarify again for future purposes.
Another interesting thing - Are privies typically considered an accessory building? I suppose so eh? I just never gave any thought to it.
Today when discussing potential future build besides the farm use, she mentioned a camp could be a possibility if we did a site amendment. I was interested in this until she mentioned the building would still need to be built to code.. I am trying to get around having to put out all of this money for a full build on my land, so if there was a way a “Camp†could be built cheaper then it would be of interest. However, I am allowed to build off grid anyway, with a minimum of a 188sq ft house, so there doesn’t appear to be any benefit to me building a “camp†over a proper 4 season home.. unless I am missing something.
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Houska
Member
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# Posted: 1 Sep 2022 09:37am - Edited by: Houska
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A privy is a) an accessory building, under 108 sq ft. and also (in Ontario bureaucrat-speak) b) a Class 1 sewage treatment system.
Basically, there is no way, at least in an organized township in Ontario, that you can legally build more than 161 sq ft without a building permit, and not up to Code. This is both for safety's sake, and so your assessed value for taxes can increase. We can argue about nanny state in general, about the reasonableness of specific provisions, but it is what it is.
Finally, re "Camp" or seasonal-only secondary residence (where that is treated differently). This does not exempt you from building "up to Code" in general or having to get permits. The principal benefit is likely to be to (potentially) relax requirements on an unnecessarily fancy sewage system, from compliance with specific onerous interior Code requirements on how you build (number of electrical outlets where in what kind of room, minimum size of windows for a space, ... - illustrative examples to investigate, I'm not actually sure if these specific ones do or don't apply).
Also, importantly, many Townships already have pretty strict requirements on emergency vehicle access to residences. These may include requirements for a registered-on-title, surveyed-as-an-R-plan rights of way for private lanes if you're not on a public road; stringent conditions on width of access lane and thickness of Granular B underlay and Granular A surfacing; official lane naming; and contracts with Townships and insurance requirements if you use an unopened public road allowance for access. This is not ridiculous from the point of view of public safety if someone is genuinely building a normal residence, but can be completely cost prohibitive for a small cabin in the woods. It is (check locally!) not necessarily required for a Camp.
In our specific situation, we had to spend about C$15k surveying and registering on title a ROW for the existing forest access road to our site. This is actually money well spent to avoid conflicts down the road. But if had to actually upgrade that private road to emergency-vehicle private lane standard, estimates ranged from $80k to $200k. Fortunately, in our case there was a workaround.
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CntryGal
Member
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# Posted: 1 Sep 2022 09:50am
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My land is on a public road, easy access, though as you say, maybe the entrance to my property would need to be "legal" and therefore installed properly, vs just driving onto my pasture, in a house build vs a camp.. these are little things I did not consider- thank you for explaining that. I suppose there has to be some little differences to make them separate zonings and different altogether, besides the obvious. When she stated it still has to be built to code, I just assumed sizes, etc were all to be the same. I am allowed to have a Class one privy and a simple greywater system, and live off grid in a 188 sq ft house build, so otherwise it seemed silly to me to go through the trouble of potential property changes to build a Camp instead.
I am sure I will hear back from them with more answers, but in the meantime thank you for your reply!
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