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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 7 Mar 2022 10:37am
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Bathroom
A requirement by the wife was an inside bathroom. So my plan was a compost toilet, however the state won't approve anything but a San Jamar unit and i'm pretty set on a Separette system. Therefor i'll be putting in an outhouse to get through inspection. So i'm thinking the 5x9 room I had dedicated for the bathroom will be a closet for inspection but i want to wire it properly for post-inspection conversion to a bathroom. Lighting just needs to be on it's own circuit (15amp min.) and outlets need their own 20 amp GFCI circuit right?
Kitchen
The simple kitchen will have a fridge, microwave and propane stove/oven along a single 10' wall. I know the microwave needs it own 20 amp circuit. I also know there needs to be a circuit for the outlet's on the wall (pretty sure it has to be 20amp). Does the fridge need it's own dedicated circuit?
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travellerw
Member
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# Posted: 7 Mar 2022 11:38am - Edited by: travellerw
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Electrical code is VERY location specific. Although most areas base it on the national code, they add their own rules locally.
Bathrooms
Up here (and pretty sure most places), the entire bathroom can be on a single 15A circuit to run the lighting, exhaust fan and outlet (usually just one at the sink). The outlet needs to be a CFCI (would be the last device on the run), or you can put a GFCI breaker and cover all the devices.
Kitchens
I would check into this one closely. The code for kitchens has changed and some locations are still following the old rules. The old code used to be that every counter outlet have the tab broken and the top and bottom outlets in a plug be serviced by separate circuits @ 15A.
However, that code is now considered outdated. You are allowed 2 standard outlets on a single 15 or 20 amp circuit (no broken tab and yes 15A circuits are allowed). Each outlet can be no more than 1.8M (6ft ish) apart. If any one of the outlets are within 1.5M of a water source then the circuit needs to be GFCI protected. Most common that one of the 2 outlets is a GFCI with the second outlet being fed from the "load" terminals on the GFCI outlet.
Permanent islands are considered counter space and must abide by the outlet rules
A separate branch circuit for refrigerators and microwaves (can be 15A).
Again, I would see if you can find a copy of the local code rules as there is a ton of other minutia that local authorities can and do put in. Often a local authority will put together a nice "rundown" document for you to follow. Here is an example of that.
https://www.calgary.ca/content/dam/www/pda/pd/documents/brochures/homeowner-electrica l-wiring-guide.pdf
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travellerw
Member
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# Posted: 7 Mar 2022 12:01pm
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Ahh one final thought that I got caught out on.
AFCI (arc fault protected). There is a change to make all circuits AFCI protected now. The only circuits excluded are kitchen outlets. Fridge is excluded, microwave is not. Bathrooms need to be AFCI protected as well.
I was shocked as that code used to only apply to bedrooms, but is everything now. It really sucks as AFCI breakers are like $80 each (instead of $15). They also don't make double pole AFCI breakers, so you need to size you panel correctly.
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 7 Mar 2022 01:05pm
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Well if i read this correctly, looks like Wisconsin is still running off of the 2017 NEC.
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travellerw
Member
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# Posted: 7 Mar 2022 01:35pm
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Quoting: WILL1E Well if i read this correctly, looks like Wisconsin is still running off of the 2017 NEC.
It looks like Wisconsin adopted the 2017 NEC which includes most of the modern code (including Arc Fault branches in all rooms, except the mentioned kitchen circuits).
You can find a confirmation of that in this document.
https://dsps.wi.gov/Documents/Programs/ElectricalLighting/FAQ2018WinterUpdateResident ial.pdf
I'm not sure how it is done there, but here, the local municipality can also add things to the code. They can't use a "lesser" rule, but they can make a stronger rule enforced for that area.
So.. All of what I listed above does apply (local code may require 20A countertop circuits over the 15A 2017 NEC requirement, you need to check this or just go 20A).
It really sucks as "technically" the circuit you run for the microwave requires a AFCI breaker (thats like $80). Your bathroom circuit is also required to be AFCI. There are no rules about a bathroom sharing a circuit, so it may make sense to combine the bathroom and the bedroom as long as you don't go over the device rule (make the counter plug the last device and use a GFCI outlet there).
Sigh.. It will be painful for me to spend like $600 in breakers!
(I do not advocate this at all.. but I talked to a local electrician and he said its pretty common to install the AFCI breakers, get inspected and then remove them. He said every electrician has a set of breakers that have been installed in MANY houses).
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 7 Mar 2022 02:56pm
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Quoting: travellerw Each outlet can be no more than 1.8M (6ft ish) apart
Double check that. You wouldn't be the first person to misinterpret the rule. US code it is worded something like an electrical device must be able to be plugged in with a cord no longer than 6 foot in length without using extension cords. So place a theoretical lamp on the floor. A 6 foot cord could go to the left or right. 6 + 6 = outlets can be 12 feet apart. Gotta run and catch a plane. Later.
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travellerw
Member
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# Posted: 7 Mar 2022 04:01pm
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Quoting: ICC Double check that. You wouldn't be the first person to misinterpret the rule. US code it is worded something like an electrical device must be able to be plugged in with a cord no longer than 6 foot in length without using extension cords. So place a theoretical lamp on the floor. A 6 foot cord could go to the left or right. 6 + 6 = outlets can be 12 feet apart. Gotta run and catch a plane. Later.
Local codes are different.. Here is the exerp from Calgary's code I posted above. Ours is the same in our County.
"â– Outlets must be no more than 1.8 m apart
measured along the wall behind a counter top,
and no more than 900 mm from a sink,
stove or end point."
Plus we are talking about countertop outlets! The follow different rules than the standard "wall" outlet.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 7 Mar 2022 06:14pm
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After I was on the plane I realized it was a kitchen and 6 foot was correct.
One of the last builds I did with my brother was a complete dried-in shell, 2 floors, 2400 sq ft. Rough plumbed, but no wiring, no finished interior walls, no insulation. The buyer was completing everything himself. He wired it very nicely and passed the inspection first time. However, he did install outlets at 6-foot spacing in every room. I must admit that does make it easy to find a place to plug into, but it did cost him a lot extra in materials.
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travellerw
Member
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# Posted: 7 Mar 2022 10:09pm
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I was going to comment earlier, but was tied up at work.
I'm sure you have done your research.. BUT.. I would urge you to reconsider the composting toilet. We have had so many friends install them on boats, only to pull them back out again in a few months. They seem great, until you actually have one. Dealing with bottles of pee, disposing of the dried out poo, finding the desiccant material (at least the one you picked seems to not have this).
Since you have real power at your cabin, I suggest you look into an incineration toilet if you can swing the cost. They really are a true replacement for a standard toilet, just empty the ash every so often.
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mj1angier
Member
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# Posted: 8 Mar 2022 07:43am
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Quoting: travellerw Since you have real power at your cabin, I suggest you look into an incineration toilet if you can swing the cost. They really are a true replacement for a standard toilet, just empty the ash every so often.
I would agree with this if you have to have toilet in cabin. We have a Separette that is in an out house and it works fine. But it still has some smell. Not as bad as a port-a-potty at a chili fest but not something I would want inside the main living area.
We don't have shore power so the outhouse works fine for us 90% time. I had to upgrade the solar on outhouse to keep up with the fan built into the unit and there is a bit of learning curve to proper positioning, lol
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 8 Mar 2022 08:46am
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Quoting: travellerw A separate branch circuit for refrigerators and microwaves (can be 15A).
So they each need their own run?
Quoting: travellerw the entire bathroom can be on a single 15A circuit to run the lighting, exhaust fan and outlet
Everything i've read says these circuits need to be separate. Minimum 20amp for the outlets and minimum 15amp for lighting (assuming no heated fan).
As for the toilet, not sure i can justify a ~$4k toilet for a cabin! Heck, i'm content with a bucket and a bag in my luggable loo setup today, so the Separette will be a huge step up!
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travellerw
Member
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# Posted: 8 Mar 2022 09:27am
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Quoting: WILL1E Everything i've read says these circuits need to be separate. Minimum 20amp for the outlets and minimum 15amp for lighting (assuming no heated fan).
I would %100 wire the fridge and microwave on separate branches. I'm %99 sure both can be 15A circuits.
I can't find anything about the lighting and fan bathroom circuit being separate (it would make no sense if that was required). As long as they meet the distance requirement for a wet area, they are no different than any other endpoint.
However, the 2020 NEC looks like it now requires a separate 20A branch for just the bathroom counter outlet. You also can't use that branch to feed anything else, even other bathrooms. Crazy (that would be darn expensive in a new multi-bathroom home).
Technically, that circuit should be AFCI protected... but I'm willing to bet any inspector will consider it the same as a kitchen counter plug and it will be an exception. Personally I would wire it without AFCI and if the inspector called it out, then replace the breaker.
Anyway.. this is what rough-in inspections are for. You wire everything to your best interpretation. Then have your rough-in inspection. The inspector will call out things he wants changed (sometimes he interprets the code different than you). Most electrical inspectors are great. Not only will they tell you why they want it changed, but often will suggest the easiest way to make the change.
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Aklogcabin
Member
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# Posted: 8 Mar 2022 09:45am
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Will we have an incinolet incinerator toilet. Runs on a 30 Amp circuit. Works good, should be low maintenance. We got ours used. 800 bucks if I remember correctly.
Actually I will place a bunch of hefty garbage bags in it n use it like a bucket with a ring on it and it works great. Or we can fire up the generator and charge the batteries up while the stuff burns. No odors as it burns near a couple thousand degrees if I remember correctly.
If I needed a work around for a toilet with a septic system, this would be it.
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FishHog
Member
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# Posted: 8 Mar 2022 05:28pm
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I have a composting toilet and completely disagree with the above. I would highly recommend one as long as it has a vent and you size it appropriately
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2022 11:25am
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So here are the circuits i'll have, which ones need GFCI, AFCI or CAFCI?
1.Loft (2nd bedroom) outlets
2.Living room outlets
3.General ceiling lights
4.240v wall heater (hardwired)
5.Bedroom outlets and single ceiling light
6.Bathroom outlets and single ceiling light
7.Kitchen outlet (might plug fridge into it)
8.Kitchen outlet (might plug microwave into it)
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travellerw
Member
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2022 12:43pm - Edited by: travellerw
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In the 2020 edition of the NEC®, Section 210.12 requires that for dwelling units, all 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, laundry areas, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by AFCIs.
Kitchen countertop plugs are exempted from that rule!
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2022 03:02pm
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So that's 2020...WI is on 2017.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2022 03:25pm
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Have you read the 2017 NEC? IIRC, it does say that most circuits in a new residential service require AFCI protection. Also, pretty sure that AFCI's were needed on some circuits back in 2014.
So I would suggest checking with whoever is going to be doing the inspection and handing out the green/red tags, what you need. There should be reference quick guides available for sale in WI.
NFPA.org has NEC going back decades available online. No free download, but free to read. One does have to register but there is a free service. Look for NFPA 70, that is the NEC. There are dozens of other codes available too.
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travellerw
Member
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# Posted: 14 Mar 2022 04:46pm
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Quoting: ICC So I would suggest checking with whoever is going to be doing the inspection and handing out the green/red tags, what you need. There should be reference quick guides available for sale in WI.
This %100.. Instead of asking on here where everyone is from different places, call and see if you can locate the inspector. He is really the only one that matters.
Around here, the inspector will often answer calls and work with you to ensure you are on the right track. They really don't want to fail you when they come out.
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 15 Mar 2022 06:07am
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I just read through this... I have to second what Traveller Suggests, talk to YOUR Local inspector and seek out the code info that relates to your location.
I just did a quick search for an "Simplified Electrical Code" book that applies to the US and different states but there isn't one. DAMNED SHAME !
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