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Ol Slim
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2020 02:19pm
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Forgive me folks but I'm extremely inexperienced in construction. The bug to build myself a remote hideaway came late in life and I've always been mostly interested in things with wheels and gears...
I'm looking to get started on my small cabin build in the spring.
Covid has taken a real toll on my paychecks , I'm still working just had my hours cut signifigantly ,between this and the cost of lumber these days I'm trying to figure out some alternatives.
I have some Amish lumber mill contacts and my cousin very recently got into sawmilling. I could get my hands on untreated lumber at a signifigant savings I'm sure.
Can you'all offer me some advice as to where its OK and where its not OK to use untreated lumber ? I'm the kind of guy that If I'm gonna build it , I want it done right. I'd like this thing to be around for a generation or three.....
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2020 05:46pm
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Clarification:
Treated Lumber is the stuff that is pressure treated and for use externally only.
Graded Building Lumber is cut, milled to spec, kiln dried, finish dressed to standard sizes, grade stamped.
Greenwood, is freshly milled lumber, 99% of the time this is "Rough Cut" is 2" x 4" pre kiln & dressing to 1-1/2x3-1/2. A Gotcha, using 2x4 example, they could be 2'1/4 to 4-1.2 or 1-3/7 by 4.0 exactly... You more or less have to recut for uniformity/consistency otherwise things get really out of whack fast.
Many places do not allow a habitable structure to be built with "Green Wood". There are special circumstances where it can be permitted.
IN the UK and several parts of the EU, there are rules which allow for Greenwood but hardwoods or for certain log type structures. All subject to various national & regional codes.
Hope it helps, Good Luck.
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Irrigation Guy
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2020 05:48pm
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If you keep it dry and keep the bugs out, it should last a life time.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2020 06:20pm
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Quoting: Ol Slim some advice as to where its OK and where its not OK to use untreated lumber
Wood that is in contact with or actually in the ground should be pressure treated. Wood that gets wet, like an outdoor porch or deck should be PT or synthetic/composite. Wood that is in contact with concrete should be PT.
That info is found in the IRC, the building code that covers most of the US. The IRC is available online for those who want to see it. The IRC is not laid out like a how-to-do book. It is a rule book. Sometimes hard to find things if you are not familiar with it, but a good resource, especially if there will be inspectors involved.
Link to 2015 version
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Ol Slim
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2020 11:07am
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Awesome information guys. Thank you ! It appears common sense is key.
In my area I can build a "storage shed" up to 256 sq. and not require any type inspection . So thats my plan. 256 sq. feet , sitting on top of a 24'x24' deck-like structure. Deck structure will sit on 6x6 posts in concrete.
Very remote area a mile or so from any hard surface road. Accessible by ATV only.
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gcrank1
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2020 11:28am
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24x24 deck on 6x6 posts in concrete, only a 256sf 'shed' on top.....arent the 6x6 posts in concrete overkill?
I built a 12x24 heavy cabin with a 12x12 loft, Swiss chalet style steep roof in '83-84 and it has sat straight and square to this date on only 6 'silo blocks' laid flat on the surface. The old timers around here called that a 'floating foundation', a lot of small to mid size farm building were done just so on big rocks from the fields.
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ICC
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2020 03:26pm - Edited by: ICC
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Quoting: Ol Slim In my area I can build a "storage shed" up to 256 sq
Check the wording on where you got that information from.
Here in NM and many other locales this sentence kills your idea....
"A building permit shall not be required for the following:
1. One story detached [i]accessory buildings used as tool and storage sheds,
playhouses, and similar uses, provided the floor area does not exceed .....[/i]"
....my emphassis added. The words "accessory buildings" means there must be an existing building, like a properly permitted home before you can add the storage shed.
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Ol Slim
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2020 04:20pm
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Quoting: ICC Check the wording on where you got that information from. Here in NM and many other locales this sentence kills your idea.... "A building permit shall not be required for the following: 1. One story detached accessory buildings used as tool and storage sheds,
playhouses, and similar uses, provided the floor area does not exceed ....." ....my emphassis added. The words "accessory buildings" means there must be an existing building, like a properly permitted home before you can add the storage shed.
Excellent information ICC ! Thanks !
So I went back to the website and reread . I'll copy and paste what I found. Still not very clear .
Under "A permit is required for the following work" I found this "Storage/Utility buildings (with or without electrical) that exceed 256 square feet"
Under " When is a permit not required" I found this "Detached accessory structures (under 256 square feet) used for storage/utility purposes, not classified as group F1 or H occupancy. (However, an electrical permit is required if electrical wiring is installed)"
Can't seem to find any more clauses in the "not required section" referring to Storage/Utility.
I'm not sure what to think now....
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Bruces
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2020 05:52pm
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Worth asking the building department in your area .
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2020 06:15pm
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Quoting: Ol Slim I'm not sure what to think now....
Can you post a link to their documents/web page?
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Brettny
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2020 08:22pm - Edited by: Brettny
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What is group F1 or H? Look up what occupy actualy means too. The word occupy can mean many things to many people.
Also if you going to break the occupy code why bother keeping it under the permit limit. In the end you will prob be calling it a shed and I'm sure a permit for a shed is not hard or expensive to get.
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ICC
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2020 09:35pm
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Quoting: ICC Quoting: Ol Slim I'm not sure what to think now.... Can you post a link to their documents/web page?
Virginia?
clue one
clue two
As Bruces stated, ask the building permit department. If you build without a permit and are found out, you could be asked to pay double what the permit cost would have been and "they" can demand all sorts of inspections, plans, etc. that will cost more money. Even hidden in the woods there is a good chance that sooner or later "they" will know about your improvement to the land.
You could also be lucky and just have to start paying higher taxes once you are found and not be hit with any penalties. On the other hand, I do know of a small cabin (bigger than 256 sq ft) that had to be demolished because it was non-permitted and was deficient in construction. Located in VA.
Chances are very good that the county will sooner or later know of your building(s) as every county around my neck of the woods uses GIS data. The assessor's offices have aerial photo maps combined with property boundary overlays. Software can easily find new structures.
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Ol Slim
Member
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2020 12:27pm
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LOL.... I really like this forum . Thanks for all the input guys. And for being patient with me . For the second time in this thread I'm seeing clearly where common sense goes a long way.
Virginia is correct. And yes I agree its ridiculous for me to think it will be long at all before "they" have discovered my structure. Better off to do everything right. At 44 years old i still have way too much child in me and want to rush this along.
The whole idea is about being outdoors and enjoying it. While learning a little about construction. Its already clear to me that the "process" is going to be as much fun as the finished product. Why rush it?
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2020 09:35pm
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As with most everything in life there is not a multitude of choices, there is the right thing to do and everything else.
Imagine building your dream and having to tear it down after being fined......
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BobW
Member
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2020 03:58pm
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Back to your original question, I think any lumber within two feet of the ground must be treated.
Check a code book or ask inspector.
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Nobadays
Member
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2020 04:44pm
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A thought... you were saying you may have access to lumber your cousin would mill. I milled 90%+ of the lumber for the first home I built, and milled it to current, at the time, planned lumber specs. This allowed us to buy and use lumberyard dimensional lumber as needed without problems commonly associated with using rough cut lumber. If you cut full dimension as is common... you start framing with it you have to finish with it.
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Tim_Ohio
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# Posted: 17 Nov 2021 09:17am
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Ol Slim,
"Deck structure will sit on 6x6 posts in concrete"
In my opinion, scrap this idea. Pour the concrete below the frost line in the ground and then up above the ground (10-12 inches above grade) should work.
Then fasten the building to the piers. You will not have to use treated for the beams across the concrete, but use of the treated would help prevent insect infestation. If you use untreated, cover the tops of the piers with flashing and fold it down over the edges of the tops of the piers to prevent termites from getting into it. The only other real concern is carpenter ants, which are just as bad as termites. I had to set out ant traps because they were so bad.
You can check photos of the piers with many of the builds on here that are using concrete piers where permitted.
Best of luck.
Tim_Ohio
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MKirchhoff
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# Posted: 17 Nov 2021 04:53pm
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Where I live (in urban Alaska) an accessory building up to 200 sq. feet can be built without a permit, but it can NOT be lived in. Living in it, even as a getaway on weekends, requires permits and code compliance. It just takes one nosy neighbor to call the authorities (voice of experience here). Check with your local Building Department first.
I agree with the suggestion that any wood that comes in contact with the ground is best chemically treated. Even then, do not expect any wood exposed to moisture, air, and bacteria to "last for generations". Keeping the wood DRY is the key to making it last.
For the deck supports, don't put wood INTO concrete (common with fence posts, but not buildings). Wood surrounded by concrete WILL rot, and will be impossible to replace.
I suspect you are not going deep with the deck footings. Depending on your winters, frost heaving could be a problem. I'd make them deep (below the frost line), floating (on the surface), or shallow but frost-protected (with XPS foam, to keep the cold from penetrating).
There is much good advice on this site about building small cabins on different types of foundations. Read on, and Good Luck!
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