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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2020 08:38am
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My plan was to put our 5th wheel on our new land, but that doesen't seem like it's going to happen, at least for the near term. So i may be utilizing the cargo trailer i originally bought as a storage solution as my "cabin". Since it gets cold here in WI, i don't think the aluminum skinned and plywood lined steel trailer is going to offer much insulation regardless of what i do for a heat source.
So i've been tossing around the idea of pulling the plywood and putting in 1" rigid foam. The "studs" in the wall are 1.25" square steel tubes. I've seen how people us spray foam to fill the seams and such after installing the rigid panels. But I have 2 questions/concerns regarding condensation and mold.
1. Should a vapor barrier be put up somehow?
2. Will the 1/4" gap between the foam and the plywood be an area for cold air to get trapped, condensation to form and eventually mold to grow?
I haven't commited to this plan 100% yet as every dollar i spend towards this thing takes away from the eventual cabin build.
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2020 09:38am
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Why are you building a RV out of a cargo trailer when you have a RV?
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2020 09:46am
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WI is either climate zone 6 or 7 depending on where you are. You would need more R-value of foam insulation than you would likely want to install or pay for to prevent condensation on the inside face.
IF this was a residential or commercial building you would need R25 or R30 worth of spray foam inside (or outside) the aluminum skin in order to prevent condensation on the interior face. The same rules, the same science, should apply to converting a trailer. At least that is how I see it.
This is drawn from the fact that if one is to apply a spray foam or rigid foam sheet insulation over the exterior of an existing building, the insulation must have a high enough R-value to keep the inside surfaces above the dew point. WI gets very cold so the required thickness of foam gets to vbe rather thick. If you limited use of the trailer to NOT include the coldest months you could get away with less foam thickness.
Maybe there is something wrong with my thinking, as I am not a scientist or engineer. What do people think?
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Aklogcabin
Member
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2020 10:14am
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I don’t think you would have a big problem. I know lots of folks use their enclosed snogo trailers for campers. It’s a trailer with minimal insulation. Like any other camper trailer without furniture. If it doesn’t have a window, you may consider that to let fresh air in . The winters have pretty dry air also.
Lots of different heaters around. If electric around probably easiest but a direct vent to outside air heater would probably work also.
May be best to ask the folks at rv camper places what they have for air exchangers if they have a DC power humidistat control switch to control excess vapor . I grew up in northern Wi.
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2020 12:28pm
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Quoting: Brettny Why are you building a RV out of a cargo trailer when you have a RV?
I'm having some driveway issues when it comes to heavy loads so i'm becoming more and more hesitant to bring my camper in. I don't want to keep spending money building a driveway capable of heavy loads when i won't need that kind of road once im done with the camper. Trying to keep things as natural as possible.
@ICC Thanks for the input! A couple years ago i built an ice fishing shack from scratch on top of a pop up camper frame. The walls and roof were built with steel studs like they use in commercial building. I did the outside with corrugated steel, used pink rigid foam between the studs and then skinned the inside with some thin pine tongue and groove planks. I used a propane wall heater. That thing would get plenty warm, however after spending a weekend in it on the ice condensation would form inside. I didn't keep it long enough to find out if it ever caused mold problems or not. But this scenario is what has me worried with the cargo trailer. I already installed 2 walls vents and plan to install 1-2 windows.
@Aklogcabin Where about's in WI? I was looking at either a Mr.Heater wall mount unit (they offer flame and radiant propane options) or a Cubic mini wood stove. Those are alot more, but they have a cool factor and the aromas of a wood fire can't be beat!
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jhp
Member
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2020 02:19pm
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Is the wall mount propane heater you're planning on using vented to the outside or not? Non-vented propane heaters dump a ton of moisture inside to the point that anything cold inside (windows, beer cans, etc) will gather condensation very quickly even if you have semi-active ventilation going. Vented heaters not as much but still some.
Electric or wood would be a lot better from that perspective.
Foam board only gives you an R value of 5, but if you're used to teh sort of temperature swings you'd get in a fish house then you already know what you're getting into there.
Personally I wouldn't put any money into insulating a trailer - a woodstove or a large electric heater will cook you out of there, insulation or not. An R-value of 5-ish won't hold heat that long so plan on needing to add heat for 30-40 minutes per hour no matter what.
At least this way when you're done you can re-use the stove or heater or sell it and not have several hundred dollars sunk into insulation you'll never be able to recover. You can get a seriously powerful 240v heater for under $200.
I'd reconsider your road improvements though, every dollar you put in there is a dollar invested in the property IMO. I wouldn't consider an RV to be a heavy load, so if that is causing you problems you're likely going to have issues with much lighter loads as well. Then again maybe you have a huge driveway, I'm not sure what you're looking at there cost-wise.
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NorthRick
Member
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2020 02:34pm
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Quoting: WILL1E I'm having some driveway issues when it comes to heavy loads so i'm becoming more and more hesitant to bring my camper in. I don't want to keep spending money building a driveway capable of heavy loads when i won't need that kind of road once im done with the camper. Trying to keep things as natural as possible.
Once the ground freezes you could haul a tank in there. That's what I'd do, wait for the driveway to freeze and then bring it in.
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WILL1E
Moderator
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2020 03:36pm
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@JHP The only heater i have right now is a 110 one that my wife uses around home and then a portable propane buddy heater that i use for ice fishing. I planned to use the later, however Mr.Heater makes a wall mount propane radiant unit that can have a blower attached. I think it would be around a $300 investment.
@Northrick I've actually thought the same idea. I need to have something in place the week of thanksgiving as that is opening weekend for gun season. So i don't know if we will have enough freeze by then. If not, it'll have to be the trailer.
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Brettny
Member
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2020 03:38pm
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Repair the driveway. Your looking at it as money wasted but money spent on acess to your land isnt wasted. Spending time and money for a temp structure with no future use is.
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jhp
Member
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2020 04:20pm
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The 110v heater will max out around 5,000 BTU. That won't make much of a difference at all, even in an insulated trailer.
Your Buddy Heater will keep you warm (the Big Buddy puts out 18k BTU) but it will put out an absurd amount of water vapor to the point I would rather waste some extra gas on heat than worry about the insulation mold. On full heat output in cold temps you will find you have problems with a 20# tank freezing up. The bigger 20-30k wall units will be even worse. There is also the whole safety debate about running these inside...I won't start that whole battle but non-vented heaters do present a danger.
If $300 was a hard budget, IMO your bang for the buck factor would be best met with a 240v electric heater or a small fish house or tent type wood stove.
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Irrigation Guy
Member
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# Posted: 28 Oct 2020 05:53pm
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Quoting: Brettny Repair the driveway. Your looking at it as money wasted but money spent on acess to your land isnt wasted. Spending time and money for a temp structure with no future use is.
I agree! The more money you waste on temporary hold overs, the further it puts you from your goal. You own a camper, drag that thing up there. If your driveway need improvement do it, you won’t regret it. Last year I had a guy do mine, 800’ scraped and gravel laid, $6500. It hurt to spend that but now I can get what ever I need up the hill. I have 60’ grade change over the length of the drive, over Columbus Day weekend my brother pulled his 34’ camper right up the hill no issue.
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ratfink56
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2020 07:06am
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Here is a source for affordable mini wood stoves.
https://www.northwoodsfab.com/home
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2020 11:10am - Edited by: paulz
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Quoting: Irrigation Guy I agree! The more money you waste on temporary hold overs, the further it puts you from your goal.
I'll echo what the others have said, now that I'm an older (maybe a bit wiser) cabin dweller. The exuberance to enjoy your new land is understandable, I sure had it. I was about ready to put a bed in the 8x12 well shack that was already on my land. Then I brought out small camper van out and set that up, not suited for longer stays. Then I bought a 35' 5th wheel and drug it out there but only used it a few times as it didn't suit our special circumstances.
Everybody's situation is different, do what suits you best. But, looking back, I would have been better off focusing on the long term as IG says above.
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Aklogcabin
Member
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# Posted: 29 Oct 2020 12:17pm
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I grew up in NW wi. Lots of different options for sure. I suspect you have a preference already. And the only one who can see the whole picture. On things like the little woodstove. Going to be lots of different temperatures swing. And getting up at night to feed the stove. Or just fit it into the nightly get up to pee schedule. If I had electric I’d stick a baseboard heater with it’s own t stat in it. You would even add value to it if you put a electric hookup on it with a few plug-ins. And ac lights , porch light n such. Use it and make a buck too. Fold down bed platforms ,table n such. And sometimes it’s just the cost of doing business.
In Ak I can still find some old runway matts from WW 2 . I would probably corduroy the bad spots. Maybe just use some planks. Or cut trees that you can place next to each other like smaller spruce trees. Then cover with gravel. Ak Highway style. I have to do this on the trail to our cabin to get wheelers through. So I’m still building corduroy trails. Still have a freight sled stuck at the start of a bad spot.
You’re enthusiasm is cool, stay course and always stay positive. Remember this is the driveway to a lot of memories. Make them all Great ! Even the ones that require a bit of cabisengineuity.
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spencerin
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2020 12:26am
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Find a way to bring in the 5th wheel instead. Trust us on this one.....
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2020 08:46am - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Will1IE, I did this, kinda. I used to go on lots of off road motorcycle rides and overnighters, so I made my cargo trailer suitable to sleep in. First, ordered it with a side RV door, I added an AC unit, a Suburban 20,000 BTU RV furnace, a charger/controller, stereo and reading lights. Its worked great. I did remove the AC unit, no longer use it for rides, added another roof vent where the AC was.
You will get sweat on the inside of the metal skin, when it beads up after heating the inside, you want it to run down and out the bottom of the walls. Packing in insulation will just soak up water. I didnt insulate mine, I did insulate the roof for the AC.
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gcrank1
Member
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# Posted: 30 Oct 2020 10:47am
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We've been the route from throwing down to sleep on the ground to a small Class A diy motorhome made from an alum body 'potato chip' step van. And 2 simple cabins. The 1" Dow blue rigid insulation was fine in the step van and the 1st cabin for over 30yrs.
That said, dont let ADD getcha, keep focused....ya have the fifth wheel, and presumably something decent enough to pull it. Get somebody close by up there ready with their tractor and tow chains in. Likely to have em already 'in' the property so if you get stuck it is easy to back up to you and hook up to pull you in.
We did similar, though on a smaller scale, but getting stuck half way in was not going to be a good thing as there would have been no way to get a tow rig past us stuck so we staged everything 'just in case'. As it was I barely made it on my own; Big Win!
This way you maximize what ya got and minimize time and expense from the real objective. It will be quicker and cheaper than building something else.
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