Western NY/Finger Lakes Area Building Code Questions

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Small Cabin Forum / General Forum / Western NY/Finger Lakes Area Building Code Questions


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Badfish740 Member	# Posted: 12 Jul 2020 09:23pm Reply Anyone out this way who can give me some guidance? We are looking for a lake property in this area, around Otisco/Owasco. What I'm trying to figure out is what building codes are like as there seem to be two different kinds of places: Actual lake "houses" which are just that-year round places that are fully insulated with full HVAC systems, drilled wells, etc... Naturally they are priced accordingly. We are looking for a more of a "camp" or at most, a 3-season place which is basically just a cabin that we can either pull water from the lake or haul it in (no well), no insulation, little in the way of interior finish, a wood stove for heat for use in late spring or early fall and that's basically it. I do realize that no matter what I'll need to have a septic system since we're looking to be on a lake, which is fine. The "camps" that we do see for sale look as though they have not been updated at all in many years, which leads me to believe that camps probably fly under the radar until they change hands in a real estate transaction or the owner wants to or is forced to (because its falling apart) do major renovations. At that point I'm thinking the building code inspector comes into play demanding a drilled well, sheetrocked/fire rated walls and ceilings (rather than just open studs/rafters) and other items that will increase the overall build cost. We've also thought of buying a teardown or land (there are lots out there) and either having the Amish drop or site build something like these: Again though, we would want to buy one with the interior relatively unfinished and do it ourselves over time, or in some cases (insulation, sheetrock, trim, etc...) not at all, but not sure how that would be viewed by a local building department. I'm told that in these areas building codes are handled at the town level which probably means some variation from town to town. Again, we are looking around Otisco/Owasco but just those two lakes cover multiple towns each.

Brettny Member	# Posted: 13 Jul 2020 08:29am Reply Call the building inspectors. Relying on 3rd party info from us when 10s of thousands of dollars is at stake wouldnt ge to wise.

Badfish740 Member	# Posted: 13 Jul 2020 09:06am Reply I was hoping to hear from someone who either built or owns a place like this. Obviously before spending any money the locality would need to be consulted, etc...but I thought maybe someone on this forum might have some real-world experience to relate.

ICC Member	# Posted: 13 Jul 2020 09:32am Reply Years ago there was a member here who was doing there best to build a cabin under the radar. Unfortunately, their best did not include doing the best design work, but did include not following building code. They had to stop. My understanding in that in NYS there are the normal building code rules that are based on the IRC. And then there is a relaxed code that allows for summer or part time use, restricted to "so many" days a year, not to be a permanent residence ever, etc. And everyone must follow the state sanitation rules. As Brettny said go to the local officials, don't rely on a bunch of forum folks with no credentials.

Badfish740 Member	# Posted: 13 Jul 2020 11:32am Reply I'm certainly not looking to attempt anything as foolish as you mentioned. I did contact a local code official and left a message/sent an email-he appears to work for a few of the towns around one of the lakes in question so that should kill two birds with one stone. As I said, I'm not expecting to build something with pit toilets and some jury rigged electrical system. I just want to know if I'm going to get hassled for not insulating it, not sheetrocking the walls, etc...

Brettny Member	# Posted: 13 Jul 2020 01:11pm Reply I believe what ICC is referring to as the relaxed code is the "hunting camp" provision but I believe that is only in the APA jurisdiction. I dont think any state code is relaxed enough to not allow some type of fire rating on the walls, sheet rock. You also need egress windows in bedrooms. I dont think there going to make you put an egress window in if it currently dosnt have one. As far as what lake communities allow and what the state allows they could be more strict. I dont believe any where in the state will they allow you to pull water from a lake, river or stream to plumb into your house.

Badfish740 Member	# Posted: 13 Jul 2020 02:06pm Reply Quoting: Brettny I believe what ICC is referring to as the relaxed code is the "hunting camp" provision but I believe that is only in the APA jurisdiction. I think that the hunting/camp provision can be utilized outside of the APA jurisdiction but that it is for entirely "off grid" cabins only which this will not be. Quoting: Brettny I dont think any state code is relaxed enough to not allow some type of fire rating on the walls, sheet rock. I'm wondering if some combination of fire blocking and a fire retardant paint on the interior would work. Will check with the local CEO. Quoting: Brettny You also need egress windows in bedrooms. I dont think there going to make you put an egress window in if it currently dosnt have one. I wouldn't see any reason to want to eliminate or not install egress windows. Quoting: Brettny As far as what lake communities allow and what the state allows they could be more strict. I dont believe any where in the state will they allow you to pull water from a lake, river or stream to plumb into your house. I do know that it is commonly done in the Finger Lakes region. Folks will run a line with a strainer on the end out to the end of their dock with a combination of a float and some weight to keep it under the surface but off of the bottom. Treatment methods for drinking and cooking vary. That said, many of these are camps that have been handed down through generations and did not change hands via regular real estate transaction which may be why these types of systems have been allowed to persist.

Brettny Member	# Posted: 14 Jul 2020 06:57am Reply An egress window is needed in any new construction. A lake suction tube will prob not be allowed on new construction but if your away from neighbors who's to know. We are starting a new cabin next year and an egress window in the bedrooms is what the inspector said he wanted. No lake on our property but we do have a spring.

Badfish740 Member	# Posted: 15 Jul 2020 01:01pm - Edited by: Badfish740 Reply I did manage to get ahold of a code enforcement officer in that area and he informed me that any new construction, seasonal or not, would need to comply with the codes governing all residential properties including energy code. However, as far as insulation, etc...I'll only be looking "meet code" in most cases. A wood stove is considered adequate for heat, so no need to install a furnace of any kind. Quoting: Brettny An egress window is needed in any new construction. Again, egress windows are pretty simple, and quite frankly, since the cabin will be on a lake, large windows will be something we'll want to have anyway. I have no intention of not incorporating enough egress windows of an adequate size to meet code. Quoting: Brettny A lake suction tube will prob not be allowed on new construction but if your away from neighbors who's to know. The code officials I've spoken to pretty much admitted that this is a grey area. One code official said that his own lake property draws water from the lake and he's not sure of the County Health Department's stance on such an arrangement, but that from a building code standpoint, all they do is a check of the plumbing inside the house (either way you need a pressure tank, treatment, etc...) and a potability test from the tap. As far as where the water comes from that's not their department. I have also encountered properties that utilize military surplus "Water Buffaloes" which are basically large trailer mounted water tanks. Some bring them back and forth to their camps and some leave the water buffalo there and just run it into town to get it filled whenever they come up. I'm actually leaning toward that solution as drawing lake water and treating it is fine until you get hit with a Hazardous Algae Bloom (HAB) which seem to become more and more common every year.

mj1angier Member	# Posted: 15 Jul 2020 03:29pm Reply How about setting up a rain catchment system for all not drinking water needs? That way you only need to bring or filter what you are drinking. That is what we use for our shower at camp. We have composting toilet so no water need there.

Badfish740 Member	# Posted: 15 Jul 2020 09:40pm Reply Quoting: mj1angier How about setting up a rain catchment system for all not drinking water needs? That way you only need to bring or filter what you are drinking. That is what we use for our shower at camp. We have composting toilet so no water need there. Might work for our purposes. I'll have to search some systems to see what's out there.

Brettny Member	# Posted: 16 Jul 2020 06:02am Reply A chat with the building inspector can teach you alot and It shows him your wanting to built properly and no cause any problems. A UV light for water is about $300. That's going to be cheaper than a water buffalo and even 2x IBC totes. UV would be my choice for making rain or lake water potable. You may need a dif type of filter for the lake due to possible fertilizer run off and other things..i would Google that though. Even hauling drinking water gets old quick. We just found a spring on our property so i hope hauling water is limited.

Badfish740 Member	# Posted: 18 Jul 2020 10:50pm Reply So here is an initial design: The whole cabin living space is 24' x 38' built in the "Chalet" style with a high peaked gable roof. The porch will run the full width of the structure, protrude out 10' covered by a lean-to roof off of the front and be screened in. I would envision having a long table (3' wide by 10' long) that we would eat most meals at. The entire cabin would be supported by a pier and beam foundation as would the porch, which would be constructed separately from the cabin floor. Utilizing pier and beam construction however, I think it would be a good idea to use pressure treated lumber for the beams, floor joists, rim joists, etc...? When I first took a crack at this I had entirely forgotten about laundry and had two full baths on the first floor, so I swapped one bathroom for a combination laundry/mechanical/half bath. Basically along with the laundry machines (stackables, to conserve space) there would be a toilet tucked in the corner with a curtain that could be drawn around it (think like something you'd see around a hospital bed)-hand washing could be done in the slop sink next to the laundry machines. My in-laws actually have this exact setup in their laundry room and it works well in a pinch. It probably seems like a lot for a small cabin, but the goal here will be that one day multiple families with kids will be all utilizing the house at once and this way when a couple of kids need a bath after a day at the lake and two people have to answer the call of nature at the same time they can. Also, in addition to the 2-1/2 bathrooms, every camp needs an outdoor shower. Whenever we stay at a place (in the summer, obviously) that has an outdoor shower I never use the indoor shower. With regard to the mechanicals, it will be relatively simple. One space on the wall reserved for the electrical panel and another for a tankless LPG DWH-a wireless modem would be located somewhere in there as well as that would be the only thing that either a telephone/DSL or cable line would be brought in for. Basically all we need is internet access and will just stream content. I might try OTA TV as well to try to get local news. The mechanical room would also contain a Pex distribution box and some potable water filtration, but the pump, pressure tank, etc...may go under the cabin (one of the reasons for pier and beam)-the large gable roof (I'm planning on going with steel) should collect nearly 2000 gallons with every inch of rainfall, so I'm thinking of locating a 2000 gallon cistern underneath the house and plumbing the gutters into it. It's a bit more complicated than that as you need to incorporate a "first flush" mechanism into it that discharges the first hundred gallons or so since it will be filled with pollen, dust, bird poop and other crap from your roof. Once that valve closes the cistern begins to fill, and of course you need an overflow. From there I'll just do a standard pump and pressure tank gravity fed by the cistern. For filtration I'll probably utilize a combination of cartridge filters and UV inline as well as an ozone bubbler in the cistern itself. An undersink reverse osmosis system would probably be a good idea for the line feeding the kitchen sink. I figure that as a backup I could also have a pump to draw water from the lake as is commonly done in that area for when we arrive at the cabin on a Friday and it hasn't rained all week. Likewise, hopefully the rainwater would sustain us during hazardous algae blooms when lake water cannot be used. With regard to the rooms themselves, which are admittedly tight, the plan would be to build platform beds for each mattress (the bunks are twins and all other beds besides the master are queens) with either room to stash suitcases underneath or actual drawers. The bunk beds would actually be built-in with storage underneath as well. I would also plan for a lot of shelving. I don't see any use for actual closets in a place like this.

deercula Member	# Posted: 19 Jul 2020 07:48am - Edited by: deercula Reply Quoting: Brettny I believe what ICC is referring to as the relaxed code is the "hunting camp" provision but I believe that is only in the APA jurisdiction. examples from a local township code (NOT APA): HUNTING CAMP A building located on a parcel of land at least 10 acres in size, used seasonally only for occupancy as a place from which camping, hiking, bird watching or hunting takes place, which is not occupied overnight for more than 60 days in any one year, and which is no less than 300 square feet and no more than 500 square feet in size. Minimum size of dwelling. The minimum size of a dwelling shall be 800 square feet of enclosed living space, except that a seasonal hunting camp located in a residential agricultural district on a parcel of land containing 10 or more acres of land shall be a minimum size of 300 square feet and a maximum size of 500 square feet. https://ecode360.com/8381078

Brettny Member	# Posted: 19 Jul 2020 10:06am Reply Thanks for clearing that up Deercula. I assume enclosed living space dosnt include a screened in porch. What about interior walls and is a loft not meeting the minimum head space would be excluded also?

Badfish740 Member	# Posted: 19 Jul 2020 12:34pm Reply Quoting: Brettny Thanks for clearing that up Deercula. I assume enclosed living space dosnt include a screened in porch. What about interior walls and is a loft not meeting the minimum head space would be excluded also? The language used is pretty much identical to what the APA uses, so I suppose that some other municipalities just borrowed it for their own use even though they are outside of APA jurisdiction. Regardless, it would not help me as I'm not looking for anywhere near 10 acres as that amount of property on any of the Finger Lakes is hard to come by and when you do find it, its quite expensive. We would be looking for an acre at most.

Brettny Member	# Posted: 20 Jul 2020 07:18am Reply Then by what the code says you may be building a normal residence and not a seasonal home. You will have to call the building dept again. This really helps me out with 10.6ac but I also had drawing almost set for a building 530sqft. Il have to call and talk with my building dept to see what counts as livable space.

Badfish740 Member	# Posted: 20 Jul 2020 10:04am Reply Quoting: Brettny Then by what the code says you may be building a normal residence and not a seasonal home. You will have to call the building dept again. That is what the building department had told me. In the areas I am looking to build there is no seasonal "hunting cabin" or "fishing cabin" exemption and everything has to meet code, including energy. However, there are still ways to meet code cheaply I suppose. Obviously in terms of insulation I'm going to insulate to whatever the minimum R-value is using the lowest cost materials because I'm not concerned about heating or cooling efficiency. The code enforcement officer did mention that under the code a simple wood stove is acceptable as a sole heat source, so that will save me some money as well. Then it's just a matter of choosing low cost, easy interior fixtures and finishes.

ICC Member	# Posted: 20 Jul 2020 04:33pm Reply Quoting: Badfish740 everything has to meet code, including energy. Did you inquire about the proposed pier and beam foundation in particular? If a jurisdiction is enforcing IRC code, you may need an engineer to get piers passed. The IRC does not have a prescriptive section that covers piers. Several places in the IRC state "according to accepted engineering practice", or something like that, which is a polite way of saying hire an engineer for this.

Brettny Member	# Posted: 21 Jul 2020 07:45am Reply Icc is right. You need to also ask if they want engineer stamped plans for your cabin. This could add a few thousand to the cost.