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Steve_S
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# Posted: 19 Aug 2019 04:43pm
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OK Folks, NOT a Cabin Topic but it is... Apparently in Ontario, Hydro One has applied to increase Cottage & Rural power rates by UP TO 129% !! Ontario Power Generation is owned by the Province / The people BUT Hydro One (the Delivery arm) was Privatised under Wynne....
REF: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/cottagers-brace-disastrous-change-electricity-b ill-1.5250039
Well Ontario wanted a change, they got Ford and NOW they are getting change ! Also announced, more health care cuts, education cuts and reduced rural services... and municipal funds to all cities, towns & villages have been further cut.
PREVIEW of what is coming with Scheer and his Reform Party / come Conservative Party of Canada (in 2003).
So glad to be 100% OFF GRID !
Already handed out 10 business cards for solar supplies today alone... People are FLIPPIN ! Cause it's not just the Cottager's who are gonna be hit, everyone outside of Urbanium will be taking more hits... just after Wynne's 40% increase 2 yrs ago....
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old243
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# Posted: 20 Aug 2019 09:33am
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My supplier is Hydro One, I am in a medium density area. I spent my entire working life, in the electrical utility field. I am very satisfied , with the quality and dependability, of our electric service. We do have the odd outage. Most related to weather, ice storms, wind and thunder storms.
I think the plan to change2400 wood poles over the next three years, is long overdue. Some of the poles are definitely past their best. I think that tree trimming and removal will also improve , outages. From my experience. People don't like their trees trimmed, but are quick to criticize , the utility, if their power is out. There apparently are, 113,000 km of lines in Ontario.
I can sympathize with the seasonal customers, but some of the lines in cottage country, go through a lot of rough rocky and mainly bush , in a lot of cases. This increases the maintenance costs.
I don't see this as a political issue . I just expect a dependable service and if
it costs more to service my area, I would expect to have to pay for it. JHHO old243
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hunt_camper
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# Posted: 20 Aug 2019 10:58am
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Quoting: old243 I don't see this as a political issue . I just expect a dependable service and if it costs more to service my area, I would expect to have to pay for it.
Well said. Sometimes it hurts to pay the real costs after being subsidized for so many years. The Ontario gov't can't afford to babysit any longer.
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meloj
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# Posted: 20 Aug 2019 12:22pm
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I took some interest following the comments on this story online.
I found it funny that most people took the opinion that the "elite" cottage owners need to pay up cause they can afford it.
Of course on this forum, the majority don't fall into that elite cottage owners. I would say many of the ones that do own fully functional cottages with electrical services are retired and earned that retirement.
Also many of the people here use alternate power sources for their cabins, cottages and so forth.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 21 Aug 2019 11:01am
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Some comments I figured I wouldn't see here... sheesh
Couple of details:
Ontario Hydro used to be a Crown Corp owned by the province on behalf of the people for the benefit of the people (including businesses). It took a long time to get there, look up the history. Lot of things happened over the years, remember Ice Storm 98 ? it took 12 yrs to pay that off ! Ontario was cash poor and running huge deficit and Wynne decided to privatise out the Delivery Arm (Hydro One) and pay down the debt. (Bad Idea IMO) and absolve the government of the upkeep & maintenance. TILL THEN, Ontario Hydro was cost of generation & delivery + 14% for upkeep & maintenance and a balanced pricing schedule. IT WORKED WELL !
Look at the new bill insert... What are these increases for ? upgrade, updates, maintenance & replacing the poles that were put in place from the Ice Storm & forward.... 1998 - 2019 = 21 Yrs (the expected life span of a wooden power pole). BUT now it's a Private Company and it's wanting the profit end (which was NOT a mandate of Ontario Hydro).
The are vast examples of private / privatised power corporations who quite literally hold the "customers" hostage. Fortunately, "Generation" remains a Crown Corporation and only the Delivery end will hit the "customer". Unfortunately, the Ontario Government has decided to refurbish Pickering & Darlington plus a few smaller facilities at an expected cost of 40 Billion (current dollars, expect it to be higher by 20%), guess who is gonna eat that ? AND STILL NOWHERE TO STORE THE WASTE !
Bottom Line, as of today, in the news there has even been mention of up to 175% increase in rare cases... Regardless of the hullabaloo rates will "Jump" and set the precedent to raise the rest of rural rates and eventually the urban rates....
Remaining on the Grid is voluntary, deciding whether or not you want to generate your own power or not is also a choice (hopefully one you can do if you want). How much Independence & Freedom you want from "external entities" is also your choice to consider.
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FishHog
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# Posted: 21 Aug 2019 03:26pm
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You made it pretty political in your first post so I suspect a lot of people like me are just keeping our comments to ourselves
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hattie
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# Posted: 21 Aug 2019 04:07pm
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I am in BC Canada and I worry a lot about electricity rates. Where I live there is no natural gas. Off grid is too expensive and we don't get enough sunlight or wind to make it practical. We could get a wood stove or pellet stove but I can't see my husband and I splitting wood as we get older (he's 70 now). Propane out here is also very expensive.
We heat our home with electricity. We are very good at conserving energy to save money. We had a Fortis assessment a year ago and they couldn't suggest anything. In fact the fellow was quite impressed with what we do. I am very concerned when everyone has electric cars (mandated in BC as all cars sold after 2040 must have zero emission ie: electric). I worry about where all that electricity is going to come from. This year there were stories on the news asking people not to use as many Christmas lights as they were a strain on the grid - Christmas lights!!!!
I fear that as soon as they realize they don't have enough juice for all these electric cars they are pushing, the rates will go up even higher. Living on an extremely low income makes me wonder what will we choose - food or heat? I have heard stories about families in Ontario having to make those choices as well. It is just a worry that I have.
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ICC
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# Posted: 21 Aug 2019 04:18pm - Edited by: ICC
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Okay, a 129% increase sounds horrible. But what is the base rate per kWh? How many actual dollars are spent and will have to be spent if the rates go up the full 129%?
Here in my area of NM the monthly meter fee is $7.11. Then...
The first 450 kWh per Month is $0.0779 per kWh
The next 450 kWh per Month is $0.10702 except in June, July, Aug when it is $0.12403 per kWh
All Additional kWh per Month is $0.1217 except in June, July, August when it is $0.14953 per kWh
How does that compare?
A friend in town, with refrigerated A/C used 512 kWh last bill and paid $69. He said that includes some fuel surcharges on top of the basic; something like 13% extra with the taxes included too. Approx 1500 sq ft.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 21 Aug 2019 05:14pm
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Just for kicks, here's a page that lets you check on the cost of electricity in the US. State averages as well as a list of cities with rates. No Cdn info.
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hattie
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# Posted: 21 Aug 2019 06:17pm
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Here in BC I pay $340 a month on equal payment plan. That means that I pay the same every month throughout the year to try to even out the winter months when the electricity use is more. At the end of the year if money is owing, they increase my rates next year. Right now I have $517 owing. Next year my rates will be higher just based on the amount still owing (not including any rate increases).
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ICC
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# Posted: 21 Aug 2019 07:24pm
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Ouch! That's a little over $4000 a year. My in-town friend spends $1200 a year for all electricity and the natural gas used for heating.
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old243
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# Posted: 21 Aug 2019 08:26pm
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I dug out the insert that came with my last hydro bill. I am medium density. The brochure is available online at www.HydroOne.com/2019 rates and is called Delivery rates are changing. Based on 750 kwh usage for the 2018-22 period my bill will increase .49 cents or .4 percent
There are rates for low density, which will increase 29 cents or0.2 percent over the same period.
There are also rates for remote and low density , that are subsidized
I agree that Ontario Hydro, was a good system, I worked with the crews a lot. old243
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 21 Aug 2019 09:28pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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OK, I would ask, was it heavily subsidized before? And now just moving to market rates? 129% sounds like a lot. Was it kept artificially low for a long time?
Venezuela paid 12 cents a gallon for gasoline, market value would be massive compared.
More incentive to move off grid too for some. Pray you dont get a "green new deal" if you want to see expensive.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 21 Aug 2019 09:38pm - Edited by: ICC
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Seems like a little bit of the argument heard here in the US a lot... should one group (i this case city folk), subsidize another group (the more dispersed rural citizens, especially when at least some of those rural properties may consist of a lot of second, recreational, homes).
I have no problem with that but some people do. If the majority thought everything should be a pay only if you actually use it all the highways between major centers would be toll roads, for example and the country would have never extended electicity and telephone lines into the rural areas.
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creeky
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# Posted: 21 Aug 2019 09:39pm
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I love it. I see lots of folks with cottages looking at solar. Solar works very well in the summer in Ontario.
And if they can get a grid tie agreement. Payback is very fast.
If you have an electric car. Even quicker.
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Ontario lakeside
Member
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# Posted: 21 Aug 2019 11:03pm
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Not an issue for this off grid ontario cottager. Now to get the city house over to solar!
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Princelake
Member
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# Posted: 22 Aug 2019 06:44am
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I recently worked on a guys house here in Ontario. His roof was covered in solar panels. He told me he sells it back but he said he had to register as a business to legally sell it back and claim it as income and all that b.s he said it's a joke and is taking years to pay itself off.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 22 Aug 2019 08:57am
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Here in Ontario the usage for electricity is based on Time-of-use charges depending how much power is used at what time of day. Smart Meters at work.
REF: http://www.ontario-hydro.com/current-rates
This is handled by Ontario Hydro (power generation) which is a Crown Corp own by the province for the people.
The original "Ontario Hydro Corp" which was Generation & Delivery was a Government Crown Corporation, it charged Cost + 10-15% for power & delivery, plus taxes etc. Not subsidised but owned by the Provincial Government on behalf of the people. The delivery Arm was privatised to pay off climbing debt but it's now costing Grid Users on the other side again...
Power Delivery is through Hydro One, the now privatised company. Delivery Rates (fees) and taxes etc add up to a considerable amount, especially when in low density or rural areas. REF: https://www.hydroone.com/rates-and-billing
Kicker is... An Example, 1998 Ice Storm caused massive havoc and cost a fortune which "Ontario Hydro" (then all a Crown Corp) handle and absorbed. The reality is that a massive amount of poles & transmission lines went down and were replaced or made redundant, all at the same time. These Wood Poles are ALL due for replacement now as they hit end of service point.... normally this would not be the case as it's part of a calculated & planned cycle BUT with the ice storm wiping out 100's of thousands of poles in one shot everywhere....
Things like this that come back to bite later. It is NOT Hydro One's fault, this is something that came "with the deal when privatised". of course assurances etc were made to increase fees etc as needed when appropriate.
Princelake's example is one I have heard as well and likely a few others may have heard variations on it. Depends on where you are I guess. In a case like that, better to put an inverter in and a battery bank and just use the grid as a backup / backfill, using your own power first. Also a lot less hassle with permits, agreements & contracts as such. Power Co can't tell you not to use your own power.
For the EV Concerned, the world went LED and Energy Star, energy efficient electronics TV's etc and we are always in an energy shortage crisis.... OK energy systems are shifting towards Renewables & Sustainable's, so the mix is changing. The cost to charge an EV and amount of power they use is not as big as some would have others think. Depending on vehicle, can be the same as 1 hour of Clothes Dryer to 5 hours of Dryer, or on 120V for 8 hours @ 20A. For about $7K (USD) you can install enough solar to charge an average EV.
More Info: https://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/the-true-cost-of-powering-an-electric-car.html
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creeky
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# Posted: 22 Aug 2019 09:24am
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Quoting: hunt_camper pay the real costs after being subsidized for so many years. The Ontario gov't can't afford
That is so true. Especially with Ontario. Provincial debt here is high by any standard.
PrinceLake. Yes. It does take many years to pay off a system built when solar panels cost $6/w. Racking that today is under 500 cost 3k. Installation now is $75 a panel. And permitting and regulation are easy as the staff have done it a thousand times.
It took my gf 8.3 years to pay off her panels. She's on year 9. And that microfit deal now pays her taxes for the next 11.7 years. Not a bad deal when you're retired. And the paybacks today, with 0.6/w panels, and everything else 1/2 to 1/10th the cost she paid. Much faster.
Quoting: Ontario lakeside city house over to solar!
That's where the real money is. If you have a good roof and an electric car. You can pay that thing off in 3 years and have 22 years of free power.
Power to the people. By the people.
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Atlincabin
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# Posted: 22 Aug 2019 09:49am
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Quoting: Steve_S For about $7K (USD) you can install enough solar to charge an average EV.
Doesn't cost even that much. I put solar (3.9kW of panels) on our house in Colorado (installed myself, saving installation costs) and for $7k (before any federal tax credit) I can easily charge my EV plus run all my house and I will have a bit left over to sell to the local utility (I do use natural gas for heat/hot water). Granted we are in a sunny spot, but solar is the way to go!
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 22 Aug 2019 10:06am
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Atlincabin, in Colorado you certainly get more sun hours per day, year round than we do ! It also depends if your charging a Prius or a Model S too. Mind you with VW bringing the Crozz & ID3 and more appearing, things are gonna get interesting.
FIT deals here are getting weird, the older customers who signed with the higher rates will win but as the FIT rates decline, so is the attractiveness.
Solar Garage Roofs, Pergola's / Sun Shades and more will start appearing in various places I think. I've seen a couple of really amazing Solar Panelled Pergola's, I'm surprised more haven't clued into that. Even Car Ports with Panels.
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Kamn
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2019 03:08pm
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Note, the article is from the CBC.....I wouldn't trust that source since we are coming into an election and they are pro Justina instead of being an actual news source
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creeky
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# Posted: 23 Aug 2019 10:11pm
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Quoting: Atlincabin Doesn't cost even that much. I put solar (3.9kW of panels)
I hear ya. Buddy of mine grid tied 3 kW of panels for $7k cad. and he had the installers do all the work. Real good roof was prepared for solar so that kept cost down a bit.
People just don't get how cheap it is now.
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Absolutely
Member
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# Posted: 26 Aug 2019 08:25pm
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I still can't find out if this is a delivery increase or a usage increase. I pay about $600 per year but most of that (~ $120 per quarter) is delivery. I only use about $60 worth of electricity per year. If they increase my usage rate it won't be a big deal but a 129% increase in delivery would be a substantial hit.
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old243
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# Posted: 28 Aug 2019 08:54am
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Absolutely, I would suggest you call hydro and ask them. or www.HydroOne.com/2019Rates. Delivery rates depend on your rate class. Where you are situated. Medium, low , rural, remote, you probably got an insert with your last hydro bill, that gives examples and long term projections. It makes sense that delivery rates are higher , where it costs more to maintain the lines . I am in a medium density area, the projection is for an increase of 0.4% in the 2018 to 2022 time frame. Hope this helps . old243
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