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Cowracer
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2018 05:30pm - Edited by: Cowracer
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We decided to do the New Years Eve party at our lake community. Knowing that it'd be too far to drive home, we thought we would try our hands at the winter cabin thing.
Bear in mind that this cabin was not built for winter. We talked about it and we (me and the wife) both agreed that going to the lake in the deep-freeze of winter is just something we would not do. It has R21 in the gambrel roof and R13 in the walls. More than enough to keep it nice and cool in the heat of the summer with a couple small a/c units. But for a couple of reasons I never insulated the downstairs floor.
We get to the cabin at about 1:30pm on Sunday. Temp in the cabin was a balmy 17 degrees. First order of business was to get the propane fireplace and the 2 space heaters going. By 2pm, you could no longer see your breath inside, but it was still cold. By 3pm the upstairs was pretty comfortable, but the downstairs was still chilly. It seemed to be in patches. Some places seemed nice and warm, some places still were cold (like by the walls).
I turned the ceiling fan on low in 'winter' mode and it made a good difference evening out the temps in the lower level. What was strange was inside the kitchen cabinets were like ice boxes. Any time you opened one, you could really tell. It seemed like all the heat from the fireplace went straight up the stairs to the bedroom. By the time the living room downstairs was comfortable, the upstairs was pretty warm.
When it was time to go to the party (around 7) I shut off the fireplace. and left it to the two 1500 watt ceramic heaters. I do not like to leave a fire unattended. We got back at about 1:30 am with a temp showing -3 on the car thermometer. As expected, the downstairs was chilly, but not unreasonable at about 59 degrees. However, the floor was like ice, and you did not want to walk on it, even in socks. Upstairs was very pleasant at 65. We normally keep the thermostat on 66 at the house at night, so that was right where we wanted it.
The ceramic heaters kept the upstairs right at 65-66 when we woke up in the morning around 9am. With our big comforters (and a bit of rum in me) I had a very good nights sleep. The wife went downstairs for coffee and it was down to 48 according to the thermometer on the wall. It was about freezing on the floor, because the dogs water dish had a skim of ice on it. Kelly flipped on the fireplace and the ceiling fan and within 10-15 minutes the bedroom was getting too warm for my tastes (about 75). I went down for coffee, and found it comfortable, except for the floor.
So overall, despite some glaring deficiencies in the 'winter living' mode, the cabin sheltered us reasonable well. I still doubt we do much wintering down there. There is not much to do at the lake when its cold. But I know that even on a blisteringly cold night, the cabin is usable.
What I might do for the 1-2 nights a winter we would possibly use it. Insulate the downstairs floor for one. I'm hesitant to use fiberglass as it would be a harborage for mice and other critters. I might see about some spray-on expanding foam I used before called "mine-foam". Once it cures, a mouse would chip its teeth trying to gnaw on it. The other thing is put a blower kit on the fireplace just to throw heat into the living room more.
Other than a complete tear-down and rebuild, there is not much more that I can do. Again... I never designed it for winter use. Despite that, I am pleased how well it did.
Tim
p.s. Got back home to a house at 89 degrees. Seems one of the sequencers in our furnace failed in the "on" condition. I guess of the two possible failure modes, stuck on beats the hell out of stuck off when its 2 below, but it still find it funny as hell.
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SE Ohio
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2018 06:50am
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Tim,
You and your wife survived the cold, and Lived to tell about it! My recent cabin trip was in similar circumstances, but my family stayed behind in the central heat... Cabin is wood stove heated only. I light a good fire, unload the vehicle, straighten, then drive off while the cabin heats.
You might try some large area rugs? Might be enough to take the bite off the wintertime floors for your feet. And a little rug for the dog bowl...
And your cabinets can double as a beer fridge! 
SE Ohio
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deercula
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2018 08:02am
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Maybe one of these would help?
https://www.efireplacestore.com/wood-stove-blowers-and-fans.html?refnum=DEC-525-5769
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Cowracer
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2018 09:19am
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Quoting: SE Ohio You might try some large area rugs? Might be enough to take the bite off the wintertime floors for your feet. And a little rug for the dog bowl...
We have a big, oval rope rug downstairs. It really ties the room together. It made a big difference, but it only covers about 25-30% of the floor. And the dogs water actually was on a little rug. Did I mention it was damn cold? A friend at the lake said he saw a low of -10 on his weather station. Its been 4 years since we have been that cold in St. Louis.
Quoting: deercula Maybe one of these would help?
Exactly. My fireplace is set up to allow one of those long squirrel cage blowers. I just need to run some electric to it first.
Tim
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ShabinNo5
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2018 02:14pm
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Insulation wise, the Shabin is similar. We are located in northern Minnesota and head up most weekends. Upon arrival I start a fire in the wood stove, my wife turns on the space heaters and heated mattress pad. Then we each pour a glass of wine, when below zero a second glass is poured.
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justins7
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2018 11:11am
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Tim, Your situation seems like a luxury to me, compared to my cabin. "Not built for winter" ... but has R13 and R21 insulation? 
My place is more like living in Siberia, in a drafty shack.
I have had a cabin in upstate NY for the last year-and-a-half that is not winterized — just minimal insulation in the walls, and floors, with really creaky board-and-baton construction. The ceiling rafters are still open. We do have a great, large wood-burning stove, and electric space heaters and two portable Mr. Heater propane heaters, however.
We covered the floor completely with large rugs (I highly recommend the same. It doesn’t look great but it helps tremendously. They are piled over each other and keep the floor pretty warm). Also, disposable hand warmers are essential!
I am planning on getting it all better insulated, but I am on such a tight budget that it will have to wait (the ceiling insulation will probably be both rigid and spray foam). So for now we are winging it.
My girlfriend and I decided to go to our cabin around Christmas even though the temperatures were supposed to drop into the below-zero range. We thought we could handle it, since we stayed there last year, and just bundle up in front of the fire. We were eventually able to get the place up to about 59 while it was near zero outside — which seemed pretty impressive, considering. But that was with the stove burning through piles of wood and the propane heater blasting. However, once we shut both down at night, while sleeping, it dropped down precipitously (with only space heaters); sleeping under down comforters was great, but the inside temperature dropped to 35! (And the dish detergent froze solid near the window.)
In addition, for water we had to drill into the frozen pond with an auger, and carry buckets back to the cabin. An electric hot water kettle keep the water hot for dishes and washing.
When you mentioned the cabinets it made me think about how I waited for the place to heat up for hours, while staring at a pile of snow on the floor that stayed white and fluffy for a long time. I learned how there's a kind of inertia in objects that hold the cold for a long time — despite the ambient air inside being way above freezing. It's as if the atoms are locked in an obstinate refusal to budge. Furniture remains icy for hours.
Eventually this just got too much. The pad-locks to the sheds freeze, making access really difficult. Even the anti-freeze turned to slush. By the end of the week, with temps dropping even more, down to -10 at night, we decided to pack it in and head back to the city, sadly.
This was definitely the extreme compared to what I have experienced in my life, but we knew that this is also part of the fun: making due with limitations, roughing it. It's part of the deal, and is the nature of survival. I must give credit to the little lady for being a trooper and trying to make it work; she didn’t want to leave, but there was a very real possibility of frost bite (women are colder). All of this makes me so awed by native populations who survived brutal winters for thousands of years without modern conveniences (what a wuss I am for not being able to do the same). I toasted them with my glass of ye ole whiskey.
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KinAlberta
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2018 11:15pm - Edited by: KinAlberta
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Our 24x30 cabin floor is uninsulated but we have an old wood burning cook stove and a coal/wood heater which used to have long upwardly sloping pipe runs. (Which really helped in heating.)
We also put down old indoor/outdoor sponge backed rug and the laid a big oval rope rug over it. That seemed to be enough for our winter visits.
It’s been a few decades since I spent much time out there in the winter but I’m sure it would have been anywhere down to -15 to -25 degrees C.
Regarding the rugs. Until we actually pulled them right out of the cabin one day when cleaning, I hadn’t realized just how musty they were making the place. Once on the ground outside I could smell them from 15 feet away! The cabin air suddenly seemed so clean it was amazing that we’d overlooked the rugs for so long. Good riddance to old rugs!
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Cowracer
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2018 09:01am
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Speaking of rugs...
Our rope rug has literally set the tone for the decor in the whole place. Have you priced a new 9x12 oval rug? they are like $300!!!
I had envisioned using forest green as the main color with deep maroon accents from the beginning. Till I found a 9x12 rope rug in fantastic condition at an estate sale for $30. I waffled on buying it because it was mainly blue, but the cheapskate in me won out.
So because the rug is blue, our curtains had to be blue, and then the furniture and so on. All because of a stupid rug. LOL
Tim
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NorthRick
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2018 05:18pm
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It's amazing how much heat is lost through an uninsulated floor. After our first winter I crawled under there and tacked up 2" thick foam board between the floor joists. Made a huge difference.
As for stuff inside cabinets mounted to an exterior wall, they get cold and stay cold. Our cabin is unheated when we are gone and any food in a can will freeze, although the can doesn't swell or burst like a beverage can. As we use the cabin and the humidity level goes up from cooking and breathing, the cans will get frosted up. If we stay long enough or the weather warms, the frost melts and the cans begin to rust. So, in the fall we try to use up or take home those cans.
Headed up this weekend. It's a balmy 6*F right now up there.
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Cowracer
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# Posted: 5 Jan 2018 05:44pm
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Quoting: NorthRick After our first winter I crawled under there and tacked up 2" thick foam board between the floor joists. Made a huge difference.
I never considered that. I guess rodents don't/can't nest in a foam board. I might just have to lay in some foam board this summer and give it a try. I just looked up on Home Depot, they have 2" thick 4x8 sheets of Thermasheath Rmax board with an R value of 13.1 (which seems insanely high to me for a 2" board) for about 30 bucks a sheet. I'll need 8 sheets for my 16x16 floor, which is $240.
If it is really r13, that's more than enough for not a whole lot of cash. Thanks for the suggestion!
tim
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NorthRick
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# Posted: 7 Jan 2018 12:20am
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R13, ha! They are making stuff up. Figure on R4 to R5 per inch depending on which type of foam board it is. That said, it still makes a noticeable difference.
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KelVarnsen
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# Posted: 7 Jan 2018 08:43am
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My wife and I decided to spend New Year's at our 20x20 cabin. I've owned it for a little less than 3 years. It was pretty much completely uninsulated when I bought it. I probably should've stripped everything down to bare studs and spray foamed the whole thing all at once, but I'm apparently not that bright. Anyhow I'm somewhat insulated now with some Roxul in the ceiling and I cut and cobbled 3" of rigid foam insulation between the floor joists. The walls are still uninsulated.
Anyhow, when we arrived at the cabin it was -16C (3F) inside. After firing the wood stove for 3 hours we had it up to 15C (60F) inside. We were pretty comfortable for the first day and night without burning too much wood. The second night we didn't tend to the fire enough and it dropped to 0C (32F) inside. It was -32C (-26F) outside that morning.
I've still got a lot more insulating to do, but I'm glad that we are able to go up for a weekend here or there. Ideally, I'd like to be able to spend a week at Christmas there and maybe a yearly ice fishing trip with the guys.
I've attached a pic of me an my thermometer after it warmed up a couple of degrees to -30C.
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creeky
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# Posted: 7 Jan 2018 11:00am - Edited by: creeky
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Foam board comes in 3 types. eps: R3 I think? Xps: R5 and PolyIso: R6.5
So 2" at R13 is correct.
One trick to stuffing rigid insulation between rafters/joists/studs is to cut it a bit small and then use spray foam to lock it into place. Much faster, easier and tighter.
KelVar. That thermo looks more like -29 to me.
The girlfriend and I went to the camp for snow shoeing. Turned out to be the coldest night of the year. Well. That's one way to ensure more privacy there. 
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neckless
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# Posted: 7 Jan 2018 10:03pm
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its was a balmay - 45 with a bit of wind.... we faired alright ..just could not take sittin at home for all Christmas holidays...
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NorthRick
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2018 12:38am
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Quoting: creeky PolyIso: R6.5 So 2" at R13 is correct.
New. It loses R value over time.
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Cowracer
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2018 09:31am
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Quoting: creeky One trick to stuffing rigid insulation between rafters/joists/studs is to cut it a bit small and then use spray foam to lock it into place. Much faster, easier and tighter.
I'm all ears...
Define "a bit small"... like a quarter inch? Do you still nail/staple it to the sub-floor? Do you just spray foam it at the edges, or run a bead across the surface like liquid nails?
Gonna be doing this come spring. The full procedure would be very helpful.
Tim
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KelVarnsen
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2018 10:05am
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Quoting: Cowracer Define "a bit small"... like a quarter inch? Do you still nail/staple it to the sub-floor? Do you just spray foam it at the edges, or run a bead across the surface like liquid nails?
Have a look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90bG4c4ssJc
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Cowracer
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2018 10:28am
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Well... That makes is clear as a bell. Outstanding info.
thanks guys! You are the greatest!
tim
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SCSJeff
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2018 11:18am
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I'm in the same boat in regards to the floor. (Raised on piers). In this case, when insulating between floor joists (or across), does it matter what type of foam to use? (eps, xps, or polyiso) Any real concerns about fire if not covered? (ie: is it any worse than just the exposed wood?)
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KelVarnsen
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2018 11:27am
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It was a miserable job to install the foam. My joist bays were all inconsistent sizes. I had to make a map with detailed measurements and then cut all the foam at home before I hauled it to the cabin. It wasn't so bad installing on the front half of the cabin because it is higher off the ground. I was lying on my back on rocks and dirt, bugs falling in my face, when doing the back half.
By the way I found a local building supply recycler and got the foam at less than half price. It came off an old school roof. Might be an option for someone else.
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xtolekbananx
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2018 11:34am
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I just spent a weekend in upstate NY and my good neighbor started the stove for me, it was nice 35F inside when I got there, outside -2F, the stove as still warm and it didn't take long and I had 66F inside. Next morning outside was -4F. Cabin is insulated with R13 bats in walls and R13 2 inch foam board in ceiling due to 2x4 rafters, floor on the other hand only 3/4 inch plywood. I could feel the frost coming through the floor and even tho I had in the high 60s inside the floor was ice cold. I cant insulate since the cabin is only 6 inches off the ground on skids, so the plan is to put underlayment and I have some 3/4 floor planks from old house and I'll throw some rugs on top of that next winter, floor is free and underlayment is $50, hopefully it helps.
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Cowracer
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# Posted: 8 Jan 2018 01:50pm
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Quoting: SCSJeff Any real concerns about fire if not covered? (ie: is it any worse than just the exposed wood?)
I got a feeling that if fire gets up underneath my cabin, it wont matter a whit if its eating wood or foam. Its probably gonna burn the whole place to the ground.
Tim
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SCSJeff
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2018 08:55am
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Quoting: KelVarnsen It was a miserable job to install the foam.
I've read it would be better to go across the bottom of the joists anyway. I guess that would make the installation quite a bit easier than going inside the joists too. I'm just not sure I would like visually seeing the insulation more that way  Curious, did you notice a difference? And was it enough to be worth the installation hassle?
Quoting: Cowracer I got a feeling that if fire gets up underneath my cabin, it wont matter a whit if its eating wood or foam.
I agree
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KelVarnsen
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2018 10:05am
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Quoting: SCSJeff Curious, did you notice a difference? And was it enough to be worth the installation hassle?
I'm pretty sure it was worth the hassle, but I don't really have a "before" test to know for sure. I never really spent anytime at the cabin in the winter before installation. The previous owner had actually insulated the joist bays with about 1" of pink fiberglass and then cut plywood to go over top of the insulation, secured with strapping. So I pulled down the strapping, plywood and fiberglass. Then installed the foam and put the plywood and strapping back up to hold the foam.
I agree that it would probably provide better insulation value if installed across the joists (reduce thermal bridging), but I have some plans for storage, such as kayak hangers, under the cabin. I thought having the foam exposed would be bad for critters and my future storage plans.
The floor was still pretty chilly on our weekend trip. We were only there for a couple of days and it did start to warm up.
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SCSJeff
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# Posted: 9 Jan 2018 10:27am
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Thanks Kel,
I was up at our cabin between Christmas and New Years. Arrived to 7 degrees F outside, 18 degrees F inside. After 6 hours of woodstove, direct vent propane heater, & kerosene heater, I got it to 70 degrees inside. However, the floor was still so cold, that the water I had spilled was still frozen  . That made the decision for me that I need to do something underneath the floor!
I haven't seem to have an issue (yet) with animals underneath. (Except rattlesnakes, maybe that's why Carpenter Ants, YES. For the last two years, I've gone through a regime of alternating Carpenter Ant pellets as well as spraying along the foundation and that seems to have kept them at bay... But, you have a point... I do see some evidence of mice in the wood piles and I definitely see chipmunks running around. So maybe keeping the foam tight to the floor would be less enticing for them to want to find homes in.
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