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Greenland South
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 12:00am
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Truss trouble, framing trouble, plumbing trouble, electrical trouble, wood stove trouble......
The list is long and in my opinion troubling.
The do it yourself economy, perpetuated mainly by big retail has pretty much destroyed any semblance of quality workmanship and left a wake of garbage construction and renovations in its path. In my business I see countless waisted dollars spent on absolute trash, poor workmanship, wasted materials, and downright stupidity. Stop wasting your time and dollars on stuff you know nothing about.
A tutorial on a web site, forum or other source is a waste of time and money if you don't have the skills to complete the task. It takes craftsmen(women) years to learn their craft. Hire a professional to do the job.
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DaveBell
Moderator
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 12:35am
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Nice rant. I can see the steam from here. I agree with you too many people don't take the time to learn what they are getting into. (see Mike Holmes shows) But on the flip side we enjoy the satisfaction of doing it ourselves and the pride of the finished product. (see the shed of doom)
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Steve_S
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 08:16am
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Quoting: Greenland South Hire a professional to do the job.
By the Pro's:
- Concrete forming, pouring & finishing by "Pro's" = trapezoid shape, not flat or level and popcorning on the sides. Sealing was even more of a farce. Co in business for 22 yrs !
- Roof finish by Pro's OK _BUT_ Chimney installed completely wrong and another 1400 in materials & labour to FIX what the pro's did. Family Company in business for 15 years.
Just because they are incorporated, been in business for X years or have been referred, does NOT mean you will get quality work or what you actually paid for... BBB and all that are not much help either.
Also, there are many folks on this board who have hired "pro's" for specific jobs which fell short of expectations and quality and there is often much truth in the saying that "if you want it done right, do it yourself" but sadly many SKIP the second part of that which requires study, research & investigation on the task you are to handle by yourself.
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 08:42am - Edited by: Gary O
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Boy, I’m torn on this one.
Heh. I’ve seen summa the ‘garbage’.
Just down the path, matter of fact.
I bit my tongue, mainly because it was a small shed.
But, sheeeeesh
What a complete waste of material
and done by a person advanced in years (should know better by now) even touted hisself as a 'builder at one time'
On the other hand
This subject has been beat on before
Here’s one, not totally related, but some;
http://www.small-cabin.com/forum/1_6755_0.html
…and in that thread, was my somewhat O/T reply;
Under the guise of 'what's good for this country, the good of mankind' somewhere, somehow we've lost our freedoms.
We've become cattle, standing in a government approved feed lot, feeding on government approved provender.
We've lost our ability in exercising 'due diligence', sometimes called thinking things through, investigating, or using logic.
I'm no survivalist, nor a prepper, but....
Enough.
It was a free country.
I'm taking, what I still can, back.
I'll gladly take the risk of come what may.
I'll make the decision.
I'll commune with my neighbor.
I'll bear arms if I have to.
I'll make my own ammo if I have to.
I'll build to the best of MY ability.
I'll enjoy those satisfactions and learn from MY mistakes or disappointments.
I'll do whatever I can to breathe freely, dance in the romance, of this, MY life.
I can go on and on, but tend to sicken myself after typing too many words.
I'll be outside.
As I say, I’m somewhat torn
Some folks should never be let near a hammer, let alone wood stove components.
Makes it bad for those of us that have ‘some’ experience….and common sense.
Just like some builders, as Steve's reply, give the profession a bad name.
Y'all keep a fire
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 08:48am
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Hey, you wouldnt want to see the "Shed of Doom" then. All the material in that was a waste.
It looks like a shed, but its really a wood pile for a fire pit IMHO.
http://www.bcsportbikes.com/forum/showthread.php/146566-Build-to-Fail-Fail-to-Build-W hat-is-this-I-don-t-even
Yes, lots of garbage out there, even by pros. Anyone else in here like Mike Holmes show "Holmes on Homes".
Now that guys is a first class builder.
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 08:52am
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech Hey, you wouldnt want to see the "Shed of Doom" then
Yup
They're out there
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Cowracer
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 09:07am - Edited by: Cowracer
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I agree to a point. There are area where I know my skills are lacking. Carpentry is one of them. In those cases, I have no issues paying for the knowledge and expertise of a professional to make sure its done properly (or shanghi-ing a knowledgeable friend into helping me).
But there are also areas where my skills are more than up to the task, like running the electrical, or grading gravel. I don't have to use a contractor or professional for those, UNLESS my time/money curve is better maximized by doing so.
What the do it yourself video provides is information. What they do not provide is judgment. To me that were unskilled DIY'ers get in over their heads. Unless you are building EXACTLY what is shown in the video or tutorial, then you are going to have to exercise some judgment at some point, and that's where the years of experience come in.
I'm the guy looking for the trusses. Between me and my carpenter buddy, we have no issues installing trusses (if we can get them), but neither of us want to try to make a truss from scratch. Those are engineered systems, and its easy to make a huge mistake with them.
Know thyself is the best advice I can give. Know your limitations and tolerance for error, and you can better determine when you should put down the hammer and pick up the phone.
Tim
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Borrego
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 09:48am
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I understand the rant....as a builder by trade, I find myself shaking my head constantly......having said that.....I think its the spirit that I admire...
It seems most of the people on this forum are smart enough to take on most projects, and with the assistance of those on here who offer such good advice, can do almost anything.
Better try and fail than to sit around like the sheep Gary O refers to, eh?
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 10:05am - Edited by: Gary O
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Quoting: Borrego .....I think its the spirit that I admire...It seems most of the people on this forum are smart enough to take on most projects, and with the assistance of those on here who offer such good advice, can do almost anything
I do believe it's what this forum is all about
...it's why I'm here
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FishHog
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 10:14am
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I think it comes down to being realistic with yourself and your abilities. If something is over your head, don't do it yourself. Or spend a lot of time researching, learning and asking for assistance. With doing it yourself also comes the responsibility of acceptance of the potential risks you bring to the table.
I take a lot of pride in what I do, and will overbuild a lot of things to be better than a "Pro" would do. Other things I willingly compromise because "good enough", is just that. Its good enough for my needs and expected use/purpose.
Luckily I had a father who taught me a lot, and as such I feel I'm knowledgeable enough to decide if I can tackle something. And some things that are low risk, I'll even take a gamble. Some of those gambles have been failures, some great successes. But I learned on all of them.
I like having the freedom to choose and the freedom to live with the consequences of that choice.
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 10:29am
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Quoting: FishHog I like having the freedom to choose and the freedom to live with the consequences of that choice.
Well stated
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 10:36am - Edited by: paulz
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Wife went to the dentist last week for a cleaning. New young one, bought the practice from her old dentist who retired. "She needs a crown, $2,200". Quite a surprise, no pain, no discomfort, nothing visible on the x-ray.
Thought about doing it myself, I'm pretty good with sheetrock mud.
Yesterday I went in to my (different) dentist for my yearly exam. Old timer dentist, house is paid for. Afterward, I asked him too look at my wife's tooth. "There's nothing wrong with this tooth".
"In this world, there are more dentists than cavities", he says.
Looks like the wife will be switching dentists.
Oops, guess that was a little off topic.
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Kamn
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 10:54am - Edited by: Kamn
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I can understand the rant
Worked construction, worked for a Home builder, and grew up with a dad that was a general contractor.....and have seen MANY bad things from the average joe to "pro's"
It really does come down to knowing yourself and your skills or ability to gain skills.....Honesty with oneself is the key, especially if it comes down to building/making something that can kill you or someone else.
Other than that, if you have the will then you will and can find a way
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creeky
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 01:31pm
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I did all my own construction. And electric. And solar. And plumbing. And propane piping. Sure some of it worked out better than other. But it all works well.
Be careful about cherry picking.
We're mostly all smart now. If you take your time and think things through. None of its that hard.
And there's tonnes of beautiful self builds out there. My own builds ain't much to look at. But they perform exceptionally well.
My solar system is better than anything "engineered". At 1/3 the cost. My "cool roof" system. Something the pros poo-poo. But works amazingly well. The "bokashi" innovation I have talked about from Japan. A better humanure technique. And that's just me.
I've read lots of good innovative design stuff here. Just's water system. Many posts by many folks over the years.
Equally. Had a dentist come into the room after I had my teeth cleaned. took a dental pick. Went ting ting between my back teeth. Oh. She said. you have two cavities. By the time I got to the front desk they were booking me for 4!
needless to say I didn't book an appt. A year later getting teeth cleaned elsewhere they didn't mention any cavities in those areas. Four years later no dentist has brought up those "cavities" even after xrays. Imagine!
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Just
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 04:22pm
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Yno Greenland on this sight we have pro's from every Trade many engineer's and arcatects, ,even a buildiing inspector and what they do is try to help the rest of us out when they can . O ya and once in a while we return the favor .. just... an old farmer .. did you ever plant a garden???
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PatrickH
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 05:11pm
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Hiring a "Pro" is No guarantee of quality work and not all Diy people produce crap.You could make the same blanket statement just about every single trade out there.I've been in the automotive sector for over 20 years and have seen tons of dangerous and crap work but I'm gonna be the last person to say a pro is some guarantee to quality results.I've seen some unbelievable work done buy some seemingly novice people.I've always applauded people trying to as self reliant as possible.Its a lot harder to try and fail than it is to let someone just do for you.I get so sick of people saying shit like that.
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Smawgunner
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 06:29pm
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I disagree. You learn by doing and if you don't try you will never learn anything.
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Greenland South
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 06:33pm
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My goal was to get people talking, I think I've maybe hit a nerve with a few of you though.
I never said hiring a pro was a guarantee of quality workmanship. I've seen my share of shoddy work performed by "professionals" What I did infer was that if you don't have the skills to complete a task you should consider that route.
I to, have seen some amazing things done by amateurs, do it yourselfers, hobbyists or what ever you want to label them as. I will say though, in my experience these people make up a relatively small percentage of the people that get it right.
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rockies
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 08:27pm
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One common denominator in this thread is the focus on the "building" of the structure. The skills, the materials, the outcome.
The building process should never begin until the design has been completely thought through. Too many people sketch something out on the back of an envelope and then head off to the big box store to buy lumber. The results are lots and lots of ugly buildings.
It's not just a question of getting the header sized correctly or making sure that the roof sheds water or the foundations don't sink. It's designing a space that enriches your life. Where are your doors? Where to place your windows? How the interior space "feels".
Making sure that the building remains safe and secure is important but if it's a space that you hate to be in then the exercise of building it is the real waste.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 08:42pm
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Quoting: Borrego and with the assistance of those on here who offer such good advice, can do almost anything.
And with the youtube and internet, there isnt anything anyone cant do IMHO.
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silverwaterlady
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 08:51pm
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For our city home I've used Angie's List to find a electrician and a concrete company.
I've been satisfied with their work.
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 09:18pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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As one poster above said, it's important to be realistic about your capabilities. Yes you learn by trying but if you know nothing about electrical you shouldn't try until you have learned enough to know what you are doing.
As the Clint dude said at the end of 'The Enforcers'- "A man's gotta know his limitations."
When looking for a contractor talk to the last three clients he/she worked for, and see how it turned out.
Perhaps the best reason to get a permit and inspections is to have a third party set of eyes looking at it- someone with no financial interest in the project itself. The contractors frequently curse me, but owners thank me.
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Shadyacres
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 09:55pm
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In my opinion the pros have the knowledge to do it right , I think sometimes they see dollar signs and take shortcuts because the homeowner has no knowledge at all. It is the greed of the all mighty dollar that is the problem.
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 10:35pm
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Not everyone is greedy, but contractors do a tough job in a highly competitive business and they have be efficient and economize. But they know when 'economizing' is cheating the customer. It's just basic ethics and integrity.
I disagree that all pros have the knowledge to do it right. I don't know how some of these contractors pass the contractors exam. Also, some people know a lot about one or two trades, but not the others, and then try to do the whole thing with problematic results.
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Gary O
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 11:26pm
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I have found that I now know one thing
I’ll never know enough
So
I never expect a project to go well
I so love the unexpected
Greatest adventure
ever
(Some folks are wired so tightly, they will just never get this train of thought)
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95XL883
Member
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# Posted: 28 Mar 2017 11:43pm
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Hmmm? Some results I have gotten from professionals. In my house, a 110v wire shorted to an air duct (found that one when I touched the vent and an a faucet at the same time), just found spliced 110v wires not in a junction box (it was hidden in a wall I had to take down for some other repairs), a support steel column installed at an angle, a professionally soldered joint that started spraying just a few days after the plumber had installed it, a door installed out of plumb (to the point it wouldn't seal to the outside). On my truck, a mechanic moved the oil filter attachment so that removing and installing an oil filter was very difficult. How about a computer tech who took 8 hours to set up one computer on the network and it failed 30 minutes after he left. (I got another tech to show me how and made notes while doing it. My first one took an hour and I got fast enough that I could setup a new computer on the network in 30 minutes.)
Now some pro's are very good. The one who installed my deck did an outstanding job. But using a pro is not guarantee of a good job. If I have the time and understand what needs to be done I can usually do a more than adequate job and usually better than what I pay some professionals to do.
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KabinKat
Member
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# Posted: 8 Apr 2017 10:18pm
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As the Clint dude said at the end of 'The Enforcers'- "A man's gotta know his limitations."
I enjoy tinkering and DIY, however the above quote is so, so true!
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Borrego
Member
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# Posted: 20 Apr 2017 09:41am
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Quoting: bldginsp Perhaps the best reason to get a permit and inspections is to have a third party set of eyes looking at it- someone with no financial interest in the project itself.
Not directed at you, sir, but there is another side to this as well....I frequently deal with inspectors that are unknowledgable and/or have an axe to grind....one of them in the little city I work in is so bad, that contractors will just cancel an inspection if he shows up! What is the answer? I don't have one.... and I guess the current system works as well as any, there is always human 'error'...
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KabinKat
Member
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# Posted: 21 Apr 2017 08:21pm
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I can understand, some folks just want to grind an axe. There's a bad apple in every bunch...
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Rdkng07
Member
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# Posted: 21 Apr 2017 10:50pm
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Well I can kind of see this from both sides I guess. I have several in the family in the trades, and then there's me who does most things my self.
I have found that the work I do for ME is better than what I get from the pros. I sweat copper supply and everything is straight and neat. Electrical circuits same thing, neat and perfect. HVAC install, perfect as well. BUT, am I as fast as a pro? No, no I'm not. Plus I use more wire when I do a 3-way lol.
The point for me is I get a great job because what I'm working on is mine. Some pros do care but they will never care as much as they would working on their stuff. Just the way it is.
So, if you can do it to code and have the time, do it your self. If you really need to have something done that requires an education (service panel, jet flying or a medical operation), hire a pro. Works for me anyways.
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