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bldginsp
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2016 08:59am
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We have had numerous discussions on this forum about the building codes, how useful they are, whether they should exist at all, etc. So I thought it would be a good idea to reflect on one of the worst case scenarios that the building codes were designed to prevent.
The Ghost Ship was a warehouse in the city of Oakland CA near San Francisco, which burned mostly to the ground last week. 30 people died at a music party that was being held.
This warehouse was being used as residence for about 24 artists, musicians and others who were attracted to the unconventional arts community house there and for low rent. The landlord let them do what they wanted there, and the place was packed with trailers, ad hoc construction, funky wiring and extension cords, a staircase made partly out of pallets, and much other stuff. Don't know yet exactly how the fire started but once it did it just ripped through the place. There were no fire sprinklers and few exits so many of the partyers were trapped. Before the fire the place had been described as a fire trap. The building department had tried to get entry but was refused, they had not taken action since.
Housing in the Bay Area is very expensive now, and many young artists can't afford a $2500 apartment let alone buy a $300,000 condo or $750,000 house. So they will look for alternatives such as here. This reminds me of what some have said about building a cabin- they can't, or won't, spend the extra money it costs to get a permit and build to code.
An urban warehouse fire is obviously different from a fire in a remote cabin, but not by much. Most fires start from a single small source and spread from there. Major objectives of the building codes are to prevent the source, slow or stop its spread if it happens, and provide means of exiting so people don't get trapped. Could just as easily happen in a small cabin, though probably not 30 people.
Off my soap box. Please be safe.
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TerraLove
Member
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2016 09:36am
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You are bringing up a bizarre fringe case. Calling this a stretch of the millennium in my books. 
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2016 10:03am - Edited by: MtnDon
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That was not, is not the only such warehouse that is being used as living, working and party spaces in the Oakland area. If you live in large cities such as Oakland, SF you can also easily find Raves most any weekend in old warehouses that do not meet safety codes but that are full of people partying.
I know someone who has a "loft space" in a similar situation in a different city. She lives in it as she can not afford real living space rent as well as space for her artistic endeavors. It is a warren of closed off areas with limited staircases, limited lighting and one point of egress. A similar firetrap in all likelihood. One problem is if all these re-purposed warehouses are brought to code they become more expensive. Closing them moves most of the people living in them on the street as homeless. Another issue.
Apparently in Oakland an inspector can not enter the premises to inspect unless the owner or a resident allows them to enter. So,nobody lets any inspector in if and when the city responds to a complaint. No system, or a broken system for follow up most likely.
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2016 10:08am
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http://www.alamedamagazine.com/December-2016/Our-Backyard-Disasters-Waiting-to-Happen /
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Borrego
Member
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2016 10:46am
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Good warning. But most of our members on the forum are (or seem to be) pretty well informed on the various building trades. What I have seen in the pictures of that warehouse are not likely to be found in any of our lovely little cabins 
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sparky30_06
Member
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2016 11:04am
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I think what is trying to be expressed here by bldginsp
is that you always need to make sure you have a main exit path and a secondary, especially in the sleeping areas.
Also smoke detection with carbon monoxide is needed as well.
That's one of the biggest problems I have with the tiny house shows. No escape windows in the sleeping area. No secondary exit path.
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Borrego
Member
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2016 11:11am
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Noticed in the Alameda Magazine article that the writer seems more concerned that starving artists will be evicted than he worries about their dying from a similar fire.....
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paulz
Member
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2016 11:24am
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I know it sounds hoaky but I can't help wondering if coiled ropes at the windows would have helped some escape.
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sparky30_06
Member
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2016 11:57am
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Quoting: paulz I know it sounds hoaky but I can't help wondering if coiled ropes at the windows would have helped some escape.
that's if the windows are big enough to escape through and a secure point to tie the rope off to with a strong knot
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hueyjazz
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2016 12:07pm
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I've been in a burning industrial building before. Mine had sprinklers, alarm system, good house keeping and multiple exits.
Dense smoke changes everything. It's very easy to get disoriented. What happen in Oakland could happen in many other municipalities.
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hattie
Member
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2016 12:20pm
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Very good advice in this thread. Everyone thinks "it can't happen to me" but it can. This was a terrible disaster. While we hate having to conform to building codes, this is an example of why they are important. In the long run, they could save your life. Thanks for the reminder bldginsp!
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2016 02:17pm
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Quoting: MtnDon Apparently in Oakland an inspector can not enter the premises to inspect unless the owner or a resident allows them to enter. So,nobody lets any inspector in if and when the city responds to a complaint. No system, or a broken system for follow up most likely.
They can get a search warrant on probable cause, but did not do this in a timely manner. That will be the issue.
Thanks Hattie
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Salty Craig
Member
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2016 06:55pm
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With freedom comes responsibility. I don't believe the government should dictate every aspect of our lives. Therefore we should be responsible for our own well being.
I sympathize with people who cannot afford safe housing. My first tip for poor artists is to get a real job and do art as a hobby. There's many, many things I would rather do than go to my well paying job every day. However, I make the nessesary sacrifices to properly provide for my family, then do the things I love in my limited spare time.
My thoughts and prayers are with the loved ones of the deceased. It's sad to see life taken in such a manner.
Craig
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2016 09:39pm
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Update on the fire- this morning they reported a bit more about what happened- the warehouse had two floors, the party was upstairs. There were two staircases leading down, neither led to an exit. The fire started downstairs, and so quickly filled both staircases with smoke the people could not use the stairs. No other way out. They said the people were overcome by smoke before anything could be done. An aluminum ladder was placed to the second floor and it melted. 36 dead.
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silverwaterlady
Member
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2016 10:19pm - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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I come from a long line of artists in my family.
Here is the thing about true artists:
Their art is their life. Most cannot and will not take jobs they hate and do art on the side as a hobby.
Doing that takes the creativity out of a true artist.
Unless they become famous for their art most of them don't have much money even for the essentials most of us take for granted.
So if you know a struggling artist help that person out. Buy a piece of their art,feed them a meal it might be the first decant one they've had in awhile,do something nice for a struggling artist.
I totally agree that building codes are important and save lives.
I want to point out that not everyone in the building that died was at a party.
Some of the people lived there because they could not afford to live anywhere else in that high rent area,they paid rent to a slum landlord.
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silverwaterlady
Member
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2016 10:33pm
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http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2016/12/04/oakland-warehouse-fire-who-is-the-man-behind-t he-ghost-ship/
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silverwaterlady
Member
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2016 10:36pm - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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Please note in the above article the concern about the outdoor propane tanks inside the building being used to heat water for showers.
I have seen many members doing this from photos posted here.
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drb777
Member
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# Posted: 7 Dec 2016 11:01pm
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Quoting: Salty Craig With freedom comes responsibility. I don't believe the government should dictate every aspect of our lives. Therefore we should be responsible for our own well being.
I agree with Salty Craig, I never look to government and regulations for my safety. Too often, when folks rely on codes and their bureaucratic enforcement, those agencies fail to do their job adequately. Much of the responsibility for the Oakland disaster belongs with local government agencies that apparently didn't take their job seriously. No surprise really, but quite tragic.
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sparky30_06
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2016 06:58am
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Quoting: drb777 Quoting: Salty CraigWith freedom comes responsibility. I don't believe the government should dictate every aspect of our lives. Therefore we should be responsible for our own well being. I agree with Salty Craig, I never look to government and regulations for my safety. Too often, when folks rely on codes and their bureaucratic enforcement, those agencies fail to do their job adequately. Much of the responsibility for the Oakland disaster belongs with local government agencies that apparently didn't take their job seriously. No surprise really, but quite tragic.
drb777
you contradict yourself with this statement. You don't want government to dictate but you hold them responsible for the disaster.
I'm not one for big government or look to the government to dictate my life either. That's why most of us here want to live off grid and disappear. But when it comes to safety sometime you need to dictate some aspects. As the saying goes "you can't change stupid you can only manage it."
Unfortunately common sense is gone people.
If you don't want to follow basic life safety regulations then DO NOT hold the city or the first responders liable for this tragedy.
If local government came to your door and said they wanted to inspect your cabin or home for life safety reasons would you let them in or close the door in their face?? If you refuse to let them in and a tragedy occurs are they responsible for not enforcing the codes or are you for not letting them in to inspect?
I was an electrician for 20 years and have had MANY "discussions" with inspectors, relators, and homeowners over life safety regulations. Some I thought were stupid, some I was educated on, and some I thought were well needed.
You don't think about them until something happens to you or a close friend or loved one. Then you look back and become reactive instead of proactive.
Think about these few simple life safety things.
Do you have fire extinguishers in your cabin? are they easily accessible and near possible sources of ignition? Do you know how to use them properly? Do you perform monthly, semi annual or annual inspections of them to make sure they are in good working order and change them out every 5 years?
Do you have a smoke/ carbon monoxide detectors correctly install in your cabin & change the batteries every 6 months?
Do you have an escape plan with a secondary path if needed? Can you do navigate your escape plan blindfolded? Can you follow your plan in a panicked state?
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silverwaterlady
Member
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2016 11:08am - Edited by: silverwaterlady
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Since many Members have lofts they sleep in a safety ladder is a good idea.
I have two windows on opposite ends of my loft and one of these at each end.
Yes I have all the above mentioned safety equipment as well as including a excellent first aid kit and all medicines needed in case someone gets ill. The only thing I'm missing is a defibrillator(will have one before our next trip) and as Hattie can attest it's money well spent.
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drb777
Member
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2016 06:21pm - Edited by: drb777
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sparky30-06,
How I live my life and provide for my safety in no way reflects whom may be responsible for the tragic Oakland fire & loss of life.
And no matter what I may want, government does dictate safety standards, which no doubt provided a sense of security to the victims.
You are apparently confused, given your comments. The promises, both specific and implied with agency standards are no better than the competency of the inspectors that enforce them.
Bottom line, the victims that were injured and lost their life no doubt felt that local standards and those charged with their enforcement would never allow obviously unsafe conditions in public space. This event tends to prove that government standards are no better than the competency of local enforcement agents.
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Salty Craig
Member
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# Posted: 8 Dec 2016 10:07pm
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Many low paid people die doing what they love. Firefighters, farmers, policemen, fishermen, military, etc. I do have a secret envy for people who are willing to give up prosperity to follow a dream.
I'm not a fan of the arts, so I don't get that. But just because I don't get it, doesn't minimize what it means to them. I will comment that the arts are generally promoted by liberals, whereas the above mentioned professions are more of a working man/hero occupation.
We all have our time to go. It's been determined before we are born. Live life to the fullest, and when it's our time to go, it's unavoidable.
Salty Craig
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old243
Member
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2016 09:24am
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Back when I was just out of high school, I lived with two other guys, in a third floor apt. We were all country boys so devised our own fire escape. We had an old barn rope , probably ! inch. We tied this to a cast iron heat rad in our bedroom. This was next to a window that we could open . Our plan was to slide down the rope to safety. Most farm boys had been doing this while playing in the barns at home already. Never had to use it, but we were prepared. old243
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sparky30_06
Member
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2016 12:39pm
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old243
that reminds me of messing in around in the old hay lofts over the dairy barn. I still can feel the rope burns!!!!
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Salty Craig
Member
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2016 02:53pm
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old243
LOL nothin like a good piece of rope!!
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sparky30_06
Member
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2016 06:53am
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Quoting: Salty Craig LOL nothin like a good piece of rope!!
It has MULTIPLE uses especially when coupled with a strong anchor point
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 12 Dec 2016 11:01am - Edited by: bldginsp
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Good article with diagrams and photos explaining exactly what happened. People crawling on the floor through dense smoke looking for an exit that was around several corners in a maze of rooms.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/12/12/us/oakland-warehouse-ghost-ship-fire.ht ml?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=photo-spot-region ®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
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Bigred292
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2016 12:18pm
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Been in the fire service for 30 + yrs, first as a volunteer then as a profession
Oakland fire an absolute tragedy. Few years back we had Station nightclub fire here - 100 people died not to mention the hundreds of others affected, whether physically or mentally. I knew people who died in the fire and I know people that worked that night who were never the same again.
If you know anyone in the fire service they will tell you the same thing - every town or city in the US (if not the world ) has deathtraps in it. Buildings/ businesses that are a nightmare, no permits, mixed use, overcrowded, substandard building practices. ... you name it.
People are creatures of habit- they will exit an area the same way they came in.They don't think to look for another exit.
I have absolutely drilled it into my family's heads to be aware of your surroundings - look for a second or third means of egress. Have a plan in place.Things can happen when you least expect it - and when it does turn bad it happens more quickly than you can imagine.
Most fire/safety regs come as a result of deadly fires. Panic hardware, sprinklers, capacity, even tents- all because of tragedies.
When was the last time you saw a tv remote with a 9v battery? Why not? There were so many fatal fires where they removed the battery from the smoke detector to use in the remote.
I say all this to remind everyone to be aware of your surroundings, whether at home or at the cabin.
Last week in nearby Mass they found a 41 y/o father and his 11 y/o son dead in their home- carbon monoxide . A $25 detector probably would have made a difference. Sad.
Put CO detector up, as well as smokes.Have extinguishers .Know how to use it.Go over safety plans with your loved ones. Teach them to be aware of their surroundings, wherever they are.
Life is too short as it is.
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bldginsp
Member
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2016 03:14pm
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Thanks Big Red. Firefighters see the worst of it. Sitting in the fire house, waiting for the next one... quite a job.
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hattie
Member
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# Posted: 14 Dec 2016 04:04pm
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GREAT advice Bigred292! Thank you for posting!
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