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Josh8880
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2016 02:35pm
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Just got a curve ball thrown to me by a mortgage company while trying to get a loan for a hunting cabin I really like. It has electric, and is 24' by 30'. They won't loan unless it has a heat source that can be controlled by a thermostat (it currently is just heated with space heaters). What is the cheapest way to do that? Wall mounted propane heaters? Or electric baseboard? Etc? Any help is welcomed, thanks! Josh
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2016 02:42pm
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I'm sure the cheapest way is an electric. Not the cheapest to operate, but certainly the cheapest to buy and instal.
But you might consider putting in the propane wall heater, cause it will be cheaper to use and if properly sized provide quick and steady heat.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2016 02:43pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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Do you have propane already there? In the form of a large DOT ground mount tank?
Is the electric power a reasonable price per kWh and how big is the service? 220/240 VAC available?
In general electricity is the most expensive heat source. Propane can sometimes be close behind though. So in part it depends on what services are already in place.
You can get both 120 VAC and 240 VAC baseboard heaters that can operate with a thermostat.
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Josh8880
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2016 02:58pm
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Honestly, I don't plan on using it much either way..the bank just insists on thermostatically controlled heat options...I guess for people who don't know how to winterize their places. That said, I still would want to be able to heat it if I were there in the winter.
There are 2 larger above ground propane tanks there, I think 100# tanks.
I'm not sure about the electricity rates. It's in eastern Maine, I don't even know the power company that provides electric there.
If I went with electric, would a 100 amp service suffice? Thanks, josh
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RedTailHawk
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2016 03:52pm
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Is 32 bucks cheap enough?
Baseboard heater at Lowes
http://www.lowes.com/pd_31330-33978-HB-5-A_1z0zq4t__?productId=3133901&pl=1
I have a bunch of these, added a power converter, and connected to a Nest thermostat. But sounds like you just want something simple to satisfy the bank.
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RedTailHawk
Member
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2016 03:54pm
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FYI, the power converter was needed to go from the high voltage baseboard heater to the low voltage Nest
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2016 04:04pm
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100 Amp service can handle most average small homes.
Cheapest thermostatically operated heat would be propane and if you already have 2 100# tanks there odds are it won't be hard to install. Set it to 40F and no freezing. If it uses a millivolt thermostat, then that could even have a small battery backup. Then to decide if you want something with a blower / fan or not.
Electric is cheap to buy & install but operational costs will only continue to climb and it is not the most efficient method for heating.
If the cabin is remote and subject to power outages at times, winter freeze ups can happen regardless just like summer outages & food spoiling.
When can any insurance company dictate such terms ? WHO do THEY WORK FOR ? (their share holders) You may consider contacting other insurance companies, they ALL want your business. This is NOT a New Home and has been previously insured - so they cannot force too many changes, grandfather clauses and all that.
Hey... my insurance co didn't want to insure my 86 Chev Truck, found another company, switched all my insurance over and it's $40 less per month to boot. so :-P on old Insurance Co. and  for me.
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Jebediah
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2016 04:43pm - Edited by: Jebediah
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I think you should get the mortgage lenders to explain this to you again as it doesn't make sense. What I mean is: you can install anything, small or a large system/adequate or inadequate, so you install a thermostat and a base board heater and that's going to solve the issue! I don't get it! There's got to be more to this. I would hate to see you install something and then they tell you they want a heater in every room or a properly sized system.
Edit; check the date stamped on the tanks and most companies wont deliver propane if they don't own the tanks so you will have to haul them around. And they also won't deliver unless the system has be installed or inspected by a qualified tech. That's been my experience(Canada).
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Steve961
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2016 05:14pm
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I would install the cheapest electric baseboard possible to make the lenders happy, and then rarely if ever use them. Then I would install a high quality wood stove to heat the cabin when I'm there. Since you say you know how to winterize the cabin for when you're not there, you may never even have to use the electric baseboards as long as you own the cabin.
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hattie
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2016 05:56pm
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We have electric baseboard heaters controlled with programmable thermostats. Our insurance company wouldn't insure us with wood stoves because the fire department is too far away. I would suspect if you use electric baseboard heaters and then add a woodstove, your insurance will be null and void should you have a problem in the future and need to collect on it.
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2016 06:43pm
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My nephew in Canada had to install baseboard heat for the same reason. He has never used the electric heat and uses his wood burning stove to heat his house.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2016 06:56pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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Quoting: Steve_S When can any insurance company dictate such terms ? WHO do THEY WORK FOR ? (their share holders) You may consider contacting other insurance companies, they ALL want your business. This is NOT a New Home and has been previously insured - so they cannot force too many changes, grandfather clauses and all that.
An insurance company can set whatever rules they want. They are risking their money (and that of the stockholders) to insure the property after all. Here in the mtns. of NM one of the most common "dictates" is that of the distance from the structure to trees and bushes. That is closely followed by a "permanent" space heating source. And portable propane cylinders, even 100#'ers, don't make the grade with a few we checked with. Electric heat like baseboard heaters seem to be the most popular here, after propane, even if there is a risk of power failing during snow storms due to falling trees / branches.
With 720 sq ft I don't think the 100 amp service has enough capacity to allow for enough electric heat capacity to satisfy the insurance company. Or the requirements for building code, which I think may be a guide that the insurance company uses.
Where /what climate zone is this located?
Would the insurance company offer coverage w/o heat if you signed a waiver for no claims against freezing damage?
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Josh8880
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2016 07:38pm
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Hey everyone thanks for the responses, very helpful as always. MtnDon, this property is in Maine, so cold is a factor for sure. Not sure why, but one of the mortgage company's criteria is that there needs to be a "permanent heat source"...otherwise, it's considered a seasonal home and I have to put more money down on a shorter term loan. I learn something new every day. Josh
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2016 07:40pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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Home Depot map for helping to determine BTU needed for heating. Lots of variables with size and quality of windows, how well insulated, etc.....
FYI, 3000 watts = 10236 BTU/Hr
or
watts to BTU converter
BTU to watts converter
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 12 Feb 2016 08:35pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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If we use the values off that map we have 40,000 BTU recommended. Using the calculator that pretty much equals the total capacity of the service panel.
How is the present panel allocated? Any electric cooking or water heating?
~~~~~~~~~~
and yes, mortgages on recreation property cost more. Same or similar to buying property to rent out.
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 13 Feb 2016 03:17pm
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You can get a thermostatically controlled pellet stove or gas stove also, more options.
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old243
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# Posted: 13 Feb 2016 06:58pm
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Josh in your first post , that the cabin is heated with space heaters. I take from this that they are portable heaters and not permanently installed , just plugged in to an outlet. As most portable heaters are 1000 to 1500 watt 120 volt. I can see their concern. Portable heaters can have cords overheat and fail, also they can overload branch circuits if more than one on a circuit. If you properly insulate the cabin, a rough rule of thumb is 1000 watts per 100 square feet. At 720 square feet that is roughly 7000 watts at 240 volt that is roughly 35 amps. If I recall correctly you can install up to 9 kw on a 100 amp service. This is in Ontario. You will also have a lot of diversity, as the heaters cycle off and on. Depending if the cabin is fully finished, you can install heaters, with the thermostat in them or wall mount the thermostat for convenience. Another option if it is a large open room is a fan forced electric heater. They are available up to 4000 watt , but can be noisy.
In Ontario a wood stove has to have a csa or ul plate on them , an approved chimney, and be approved by or installed by someone with a ticket. Lots of hoops to jump through.
Personally I would ask the insurance company what their requirements are before you go ahead with any heat source.
Hope this is useful Old243
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Thelar
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2016 10:51am
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Hey Josh,
You may not have a choice. Your mortgage company may require you to have a seasonal loan since it doesn't have a heat source. Then once you have the heat source installed you can refinance to a conventional loan with a lower rate. I would also shop the mortgage around to other lenders.
We are in Lincoln Maine. We initially were working with a national bank and quickly discovered using a local( to Maine) bank was a better option. They had loans tailored for camps.
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Josh8880
Member
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2016 01:20pm
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Thanks Thelar, that's good advice. Anyone you'd recommend? We are looking about 20 miles east of Bangor. Thanks!
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Thelar
Member
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# Posted: 16 Feb 2016 03:35pm
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We were initially talking with TD Bank. Once we found out that other lending institutions had camp loans we talked with Machias Savings Bank and Lincoln Maine Federal Credit Union. We ended up deciding on Machias.
All three were local to our camp. They all understood what we were wanting to do, but TD had a few more rules and regulations. I would try to work with a bank that is local to your camp.
Also if you are using a realtor they may have some good info on lenders.
If everything works out post some pics.
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