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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2015 01:23am
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OK, I feel like I've had the wind knocked out of me. On another discussion forum where some folks and I were discussing the area to which I'm moving, someone who says he lives where I'm building chimed in today. And what he wrote made my heart sink.
I've spoken with county officials about the building process and read all of the county permit procedures, worksheets and instruction forms. It seemed straight-forward enough and reflected my discussions with the developer and officials. I developed my budget accordingly.
Well, this gentleman today said that the County has hidden fees and requirements that they don't tell you about unless you ask them directly and specifically about them and that they spring them on you when you are in the process.
The big one, he claims is a building fee of 50 cents multiplied by the square footage of your building, with a minimum of 1,000 square feet no matter how small your building is. In other words, he says that in addition to the building permit fees, the county adds a fee of at least $5,000 that needs to be paid before you can get your building permit! He also says that the county requires the installation of a 6,000-gallon water tank on the property if you don't have a well.
I've not found ANYTHING on paper, in writing, or in any of my discussions with the planning/building people about either of these things. The water tank size is rather excessive but, OK, I can do that. I was planning on having a tank for my home and another for the land in case of fire so whatever. But a fee of $5,000 IN ADDITION to the $4K I had budgeted for permits, which I thought should amply cover my cabin? OMG.
I asked this guy if things had changed since he built or how the planners could "hide" let alone charge such a large fee in addition to the regular formula for building permits based on the value and costs, including the square footage, of the buildings? He said he looked into it a month ago and they had increased the fee from 35 cents to 50 cents per square foot and then he wrote something about Land Use later.
I don't think "Land Use" has anything to do with it. There isn't a zoning or use problem. Besides, that would be a variance process, anyway, and not involve a fee charged to everyone.
This can't be an impact fee, either, because the County provides no services! The homeowners road maintenance organization takes care of the roads. There are no emergency services nearby and we have to provide our own water and septic. We have no "impact" on county services. Heck, I'm going to pay for an air ambulance subscription myself in case of emergency!
I've Googled, looked at the building permit process for other Oregon towns/cities, and checked the state website. I haven't seen anything like this mentioned anywhere. It doesn't seem like other towns charge a fee like this. That doesn't mean it isn't true but I just don't know what to make of it.
Have any of you heard of anything like this?
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Gary O
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2015 01:41am
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon a building fee of 50 cents multiplied by the square footage of your building, with a minimum of 1,000 square feet
it's late here, and I may be missing something, but according to my calculator $.50 x 1000 is $500.....
However, it would not surprise me if the 'fee' was $5000, as I've heard of worse.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2015 02:15am
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Anything is possible. But high fees are usually right out there in reasonably plain view. The fees may be more to discourage the less well financed from building rather than to collect the money. Until you confirm treat it as unsubstantiated. But do ask some direct questions. It may just be somebodies idea of fun or just the spreading of unfounded rumors. The internet can be good at that.
The people who are already there make the rules. Those rules don't have to be fair or reasonable to those on the outside. If the fire danger can be high to extreme at times the 6000 gallons of water in lieu of a well could be seen as reasonable. Some wildfires are started by people and house fires. Not always the other way around.
Make the calls and ask the questions before losing too much sleep over what you read on the internet.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2015 03:08am
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You're right, GaryO. So there's something up right there.
That's the part I don't get, MtnDon. It seemed to me that the procedure and forms were pretty straight-up and then in comes this guy who "lives there" with doom-and-gloom, the county isn't straight-forward stuff. Believe it or not, these were the "highlights." He also made claims about people "disappearing" from the area and how you'd best have a weapon with you at all times.
When I replied that I HAD spoken with various people in the county and even called Salem to clarify some on-site regs that I wasn't sure about, he was a bit more reasonable.
I intended to have a water tank available in case of fire. I'd just rather have two large water tanks -- one near the home and one a bit away -- so the property is covered, rather than one huge tank. The front end of my property is rather open and the back is quite wooded. I'd think that would be seen as reasonable, as long as 6,000 gallon capacity is there.
Let's hope it's just drama. Heh, well, in the course of the discussion, he's discovered that Julie's prepared, she has a gun she's willing to use, and she's planning on getting a large, territorial dog. So if he had any plans of being a dramatic, nosy neighbor, he might not now! 
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littlehouseontheprarie
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2015 07:19am
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II think he is just trying to scare you off. I could be wrong
excessive fees are becoming the norm in a majority of our country.
But the garbage about people missing I feel is a scare
Tactic.
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Steve_S
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2015 07:25am
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I'm with Gary & MtnDon. Best to follow up yourself and ask the hard questions. I have a gut feeling that this other person is pushing something out the spout.
Good Luck & Hope you get the info you need quickly.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2015 07:39am
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6000 gallons is one large water tank. Where I am in northern CA they require 2500.
To repeat MtDon, go in and ask. Tell them you need to figure all county fees into your budget, describe your project in its entirety to them, and ask what all the fees are that apply. The person you want to talk to is usually called a Permit Technician- the person at the counter who actually applies the fees and totals up what you owe when you actually apply for the permit.
Fees are basically arbitrary- in other words the local jurisdiction can set them any way they see fit. But that doesn't mean they can just do anything they want- they know they will get pushback from the public if fees are absurd.Quoting: MtnDon The people who are already there make the rules. Those rules don't have to be fair or reasonable to those on the outside
I disagree Don. Particularly in a state like Oregon, where the public is highly aware of government cost.
Most importantly Julie, don't be afraid to ask hard questions. This isn't Stalinist Russia. They are public servants. Make them tell you what ALL the fees are and don't be afraid to question each and every fee, whether and HOW it applies to you. Be polite but firm. I had one of my permit fees reduced because I questioned it and found a 'minor error' in the permit tech's application of the rules. Saved me a few hundred bucks.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2015 09:35am
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Thanks, all!
I agree. For whatever reason, this guy was trying to be an alarmist and using scare tactics. Perhaps he's seen people buy land near him and show up thinking they can do whatever they want and run out of money, creating a mess. Or he thinks he's "king of the mountain" and enjoys creating drama. I don't know. I'm not as freaked now. I really appreciate all of your voices of reason and comments!
Oregon uses an E-permitting system now. The state provided the program to the counties and trained them how to use it so it's all there on the Klamath County website. The forms, the worksheets, and a tool to check the status of your permits and inspections. There are also pages with checklists of procedures on what you need to submit and how to calculate your building permit fees.
That's why I was so confused as to what this guy was talking about. I had seen this and it seemed pretty straight-forward to me. I had also spoken with people in each department -- on-site, building, the tax assessor's office, and even code enforcement. The technicians at the desks are called "clerks" there.
The only department I haven't contacted is public works and I need to do that because they assign my actual physical address. I have the street, of course, but I don't have the number yet and need to get that. It's there that I can ask about this huge 6,000-gallon water tank the guy is insisting is required.
Somehow, I have a hard time believing that, too. Is it even possible to keep that much water from turning nasty and unusable? That's almost a year's supply just for me and my little place! I won't be using it for drinking or cooking but I wouldn't want to shower in stagnant, gross water!
If anyone is just curious about Oregon's E=permitting, this is the site that Klamath County directs one to:
https://aca.oregon.accela.com/oregon/
And this is the County site:
http://www.klamathcounty.org/depts/cdd/building/permit-forms.asp
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2015 10:08am
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Quoting: bldginsp Quoting: MtnDon The people who are already there make the rules. Those rules don't have to be fair or reasonable to those on the outside I disagree Don. Particularly in a state like Oregon, where the public is highly aware of government cost.
My point is that the people who are already there may feel there are enough people and don't want any more. If the people who are already there have built upscale properties they will implement special fees to keep small low budget builders away. It the people who are already there can support the level of government they want without more people to contribute tax money they can then have their officials implement high fees for permitsand discourage development.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2015 11:27am
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Julie, I heard all the horror stories and when I went in to get my permit, I was done with planning and building dept in about 20 minutes and $450 in fees based on square footage. Inspection went just as smooth. Nicest bunch of folks I have ever dealt with and nothing like I heard about. But the county I built in was very laid back, 7.8 people per square mile.
I know Oregon is strict, and there isnt very much private land vs public land (public is 60%, but not as bad as Nevada at over 80% fed owned along with Idaho) and what is there is heavily regulated. A great website to see is http://www.takingliberty.us and go in the regional section at http://takingliberty.us/Narrations/northwest/player.html
But I'd go in and see or go to the county website, they should have it laid out somewhat.
I'd bet it isnt anything like the man said, I bet it goes much easier.
What county is your property on? I will see if I can round up some info.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2015 09:11pm - Edited by: bldginsp
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Don- I see your point, but I think that happens mostly in upscale neighborhoods, and you won't find many of them in rural Oregon away from the few major urban centers. The rural counties in the West I am familiar with are far too busy balancing the 'public trust' against a limited tax base to be concerned with or able to create regulations designed to keep the riff raff out.
That said, there has been a long standing prejudice in Oregon against outsiders, particularly Californians, coming into Oregon. During the 60s and 70s 'get back to the land' movements, a lot of idealistic Californians moved north causing such reactions in Oregon as the famous bumper sticker "Don't Californicate Oregon". I wonder if Julie is encountering some of that from this person she encountered, even though her license plate is Texas, not CA. But I doubt the regulations she will encounter result from an intent to keep out out-of-staters.
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turkeyhunter
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2015 10:40pm - Edited by: turkeyhunter
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what's a building permit???...I have 3 cabins and NEVER GOT ONE ......I will check into it..NOT!!!!!!!!!
AND THEY WONDER WHY PEOPLE GO UNDER THE RADAR!!!!
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Gary O
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# Posted: 15 Jun 2015 10:57pm - Edited by: Gary O
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I'm wit choo, TH.
The authorities here do not care, can't afford to care.
Neighbors...that's another issue.
The trick to being under the radar; be nice, don't make a mess, bake a pie.....nobody, not even a Grinch can resist pie.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 16 Jun 2015 12:29am
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Quoting: MtnDon My point is that the people who are already there may feel there are enough people and don't want any more. If the people who are already there have built upscale properties they will implement special fees to keep small low budget builders away. It the people who are already there can support the level of government they want without more people to contribute tax money they can then have their officials implement high fees for permitsand discourage development.
Yes, that could very well be his attitude. He didn't say what type of home he has but he did indicate that he has a lot invested, put in a well and such. It didn't sound like it was a cabin or a mobile home.
But he doesn't get to make the rules or the fees. There is no government or special tax money on the mountain. It's just a tiny part of one big county, and not a very important part, at that. Any upscale properties or expensive real estate in Bonanza are in the valley, not on the mountain.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 16 Jun 2015 12:55am
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Quoting: toyota_mdt_tech What county is your property on? I will see if I can round up some info.
Toyota,
In my reply just above the ad, I posted the Oregon e-permit site, in case anyone was curious, and under that, the county website.
I'm in Klamath County. Yeah, you pointed me to that taking liberty video previously and I watched it. Crazy. BUT, my land backs right up to BLM land soooooo ... LOL. It affords me a ton of acreage for hiking and, hopefully, mule-riding in the future!
What I just have to keep watch over is that the government doesn't allow the corporations to mine and drill that BLM land, grrrr. I really don't want to wake up one day to find equipment going down my road, later followed by corporate dudes demanding that I give them an easement.
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 16 Jun 2015 01:17am
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Quoting: bldginsp That said, there has been a long standing prejudice in Oregon against outsiders, particularly Californians, coming into Oregon. During the 60s and 70s 'get back to the land' movements, a lot of idealistic Californians moved north causing such reactions in Oregon as the famous bumper sticker "Don't Californicate Oregon". I wonder if Julie is encountering some of that from this person she encountered, even though her license plate is Texas, not CA. But I doubt the regulations she will encounter result from an intent to keep out out-of-staters.
BY JOVE, BLDGINSP!!!! I think you may have something here! The County people have been super-nice to me, yet some have made no attempt to hide their disdain for Californians moving in and they even apologized for all of the regs, saying that it was BECAUSE of the California influx that the regs existed in the first place.
One guy said that you used to be able to buy some land and build a cabin all over Oregon without redtape but the Californians were coming in, squatting, putting up shanties, and leaving a mess so regs and oversight became necessary.
But they know I'm coming from Texas because they chatted with me. Mr. Forum didn't, at first. There's a tax assessor's map online and you can look up the names and addresses of the people who own the land all around your area. Heh, I did it and found out that the people who own the parcel next to mine are Alaskans! But nearly all of the rest are Californians.
I wonder if the forum guy thought that I was, too, and that's why he wanted to scare me off. It wasn't until my third response -- when he started writing that the mountain could get 6 FEET OF SNOW in the winter !!!! OH MY!!!! -- that I responded with, "Dude, I spent more than half of my life in the Northeast, and 6 feet could be ONE weekend's Nor'easter in Northern New England. No problem. And before you tell me it can get hot there, too, I have spent the the last 20 years in West Texas with temps in the high 90s and low 100s several months out of the year, plus extreme drought, hail, freezes, and ice storms. I'm not a wimpy girl."
LOL, he didn't post any more doom-and-gloom after that. So, maybe he WAS trying to scare off whom he thought was an evil California interloper! 
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 16 Jun 2015 01:34am
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turkeyhunter
Oh, pipe down, lucky one. Someone has to pay for all that, uh, free scenery, sigh ...
GaryO
I don't bake. I'm rubbish at it, for some reason. I can bake cookies fine but anything much more complex than that? Nope. I'm a fantastic cook but I can't bake to save my life. And I'd have to navigate those "high altitude" baking adjustments up there? Bwahahaha ... no.
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Gary O
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# Posted: 16 Jun 2015 08:26am
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Quoting: Julie2Oregon And I'd have to navigate those "high altitude" baking adjustments up there?
Cake is just a tad flatter
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Julie2Oregon
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# Posted: 16 Jun 2015 01:29pm
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Quoting: Gary O Cake is just a tad flatter
Mine would be like a giant pancake, hahaha!
I once invited someone to tea and set about making scones. I followed the recipe to the letter, bought new baking powder, thought there was no way they would fail.
They did. Flat discs that tasted great but resembled cookies, not scones. So I called them cookies and never mentioned the fact that I had told my guest I was making scones. And I hid the preserves and clotted cream I had bought, which are traditional scone toppings.
But they were good cookies, and very much enjoyed, LOL!
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