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Salty Craig
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2015 01:17pm
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If you are over regulated, thank a liberal. All the folks who love and vote for big government are the source of your problems. The conservative states still have rules but freedom abounds. If you are one who votes for democrats, please learn from your mistakes. The inability to build as you please is a result of your vote and those before you.
I'm for small government. The one who keeps the motherland safe and doesn't have the time or manpower to rule your roost. Make sense?
Salty Craig
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2015 02:45pm
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Who doesn't love George Washington or Thomas Jefferson?
Check this out...
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Wilbour
Member
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2015 05:00pm
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I'm a little scared now. We just voted in a Liberal Federal Gov. We have a Liberal Provincial Gov. and I live in a town with a Liberal mayor.
You cannot possible follow ALL the rules!
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Salty Craig
Member
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2015 06:24pm
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Wilbour
It will only get worse. In the good ol US of A, the farther south you go, the
Free er you is. That is my reasoning for what type of rules you will live with. The south is conservative and the north is liberal. There is some exceptions to that.
Craig
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Don_P
Member
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2015 07:57pm
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Code development is typically not a political process in that sense. Hmm, maybe a ramble...
Code is a shorthand for codified (written) law. For instance in my state we have "The Code of Virginia", which contains all the laws of the state. Deep within that law book is the building code sandwiched somewhere between the laws for bowling alleys and cockfighting.
The ICC is one of those private, quasi governmental companies. It develops and writes the model code, the code that I believe 48 states at this point, use as a basis for their state version if the building code. The code development process runs on a 3 year cycle, churning out a new model code every 3 years. It begins when someone submits a proposal, anyone is free to do this. For instance the 4" picket spacing on railings was submitted by a grandmother. A committee of "stakeholders" is formed to study the proposal, Building officials, experts, researchers, engineers, fire professionals, whatever the case requires, and members of the public. A call for committees is put out and people request to sit on committees they have an interest in. This is intended to be a fact based process.
If the proposal moves forward, the committee drafts language and it is published for public comment. At the end of that period changes are made and the draft proposal is voted on by the membership of the ICC. This is the entire membership rather than a committee, building officials, firefighters... and those stakeholders whoever they might be... if you pay dues to ICC you can vote.
The successful draft proposal is then written into the next edition of the model code. That model code has no force and is simply a suggestion forwarded by the ICC through the consensus process described above.
State legislatures then review the model code, make changes, and adopt their version... into law, this is where that step to "code" occurs. By this point you have had input three times, more if you're grandma, you remember grandma (insert whoever you want in the role of grandma, insurance lobby, fireman's lobby, greenie lobby)... grandma has nursed this proposal all the way along, then lobbied the state legislators to approve that code with the new revision pertaining to their interest.
Grandma has pushed that bill along. Did we pay attention and comment or work on a counter proposal? Generally, absent a public outcry, the stakeholders within the state modify the model code to reflect their needs and let the legislature know they have the new version of the state building code ready to rubber stamp. You can be one of the stakeholders in any of that. My state generally waits a couple of years after the latest model code comes out to adopt our version of it. They watch how the new changes work in real life, shed any changes that we don't need, or can successfully fight, and then adopt. This is where the state stakeholders are at work, the NAHB, National Association of Home Builders is a powerful lobby on the other side of the equation.
Uhh, I've bored myself, anyway, some background to the process. I don't see it as red or blue as much as green. ICC, International Cash Cow 
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Julie2Oregon
Member
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2015 08:21pm
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I don't really feel "free" in Texas. Thanks to medical tort reform, a surgeon/hospital botched my surgery requiring a second corrective surgery and a two-month hospitalization. My blood and bone marrow are now permanently messed up requiring lifelong medication but there isn't a darn thing I can do about it legally. Oh, it IS medical malpractice by law. Lawyers have told me that. But since the state passed tort reform making medical malpractice lawsuits arduous, lengthy affairs and the cap on damages being $225,000, few lawyers are willing to take the cases because there's no money in them. I found one who would but we couldn't get docs to testify against their colleague. Free? Right. Free to be butchered, nearly lose a limb, and be saddled with medical bills while the butcher and hospital, those with the power, carry on.
Our property taxes suck, as did my pay as a teacher (wages here are on the low end), the horrible quality of the roads where I live that the city doesn't maintain despite our property taxes, the 8.25 percent sales tax that I have to pay on most things, the deregulation of electricity which means I have to shop around every year for an electric company that sux the least and can do what it wants to us, and the list goes on. Nearby Arizona TAXES those using solar panels. It wouldn't surprise me if Texas starts doing that, too.
Maybe building isn't restrictive in some places around Texas, I don't know. But how often does one actually build? One has to look at the overall quality of life and cost of living in a place, and what happens if you get sick, have a downturn, or the unexpected occurs. That surgeon and hospital are FREE to keep harming people because of Texas law. Yay. Meanwhile, I was stuck in a hospital all summer and my cabin-building plans were delayed until next year.
Look, politics is politics. Blaming whatever ideology isn't productive. Texas is great for some people. For what I want and for my lifestyle, I will do MUCH better in Oregon. No sales tax, incentives for alternative energy, reasonable property taxes. Yeah, I'll have to pay for building permits and do the septic dance. Oh, well. It's in my best interests to do so and once it's done, it's done. And I won't have to worry about anyone wanting to tax my solar panels because they're ticked that I'm not buying electricity and such from their buddies in the energy sector.
Everything is a tradeoff. Places, states, whatever need a certain amount of money to operate and they get it in various ways. They just do. True freedom comes when individuals have rights and standing in all facets of life -- when their lives, work, and abilities are held as valuable as those of the wealthy and powerful.
Off my soapbox. 
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Salty Craig
Member
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2015 10:38pm
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Don_P
You are a very learned man. I salute you. I have no doubt that your details are correct.
Julie2Oregon
I agree that some places will suit you better than others. It's like that for everyone. If any area was a clear winner, the other areas would be empty.
My observations is that the south typically has less government intervention in a persons life. I personally prefer that. Don't get me wrong, there's much in the northern parts of the US that I like. And our votes matter. If anyone thinks a liberal government is a good thing, let's talk about Detroit and Baltimore.
Salty Craig
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martym
Member
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2015 02:11pm
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Salty Craig
So I gotta ask. What did the liberal goverment and building codes do to Detroit and Baltimore?
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randino
Member
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2015 02:57pm
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Some municipalities have exceptions for "recreational" cabins. Code is often different for these types of structures. You cannot live there full time however.
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Salty Craig
Member
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2015 07:38pm
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martym
Those two cities are being used more as a general example of liberal leadership than building codes in particular. Detroit was once the greatest and most prosperous place to work and live. Now it has sections being bulldozed.
The reason? In part the blame is to be placed on the labor unions. Which politicians pander to the unions? The answer is already known without me saying.
Next reason is a tax and spend government. Or in many cases, spend more than you tax. Accumulate debt levels that can't be repaid. Borrow money to fund fat pensions. Over promise a bloated government workforce. Punish achievement with higher taxes. Keep adding to the handouts and goodies for non producers. Create a welfare state where the majority of voters are voting for a gimme government.
Next the producers move to a less hostile environment and the factories are shuttered. Production lines are started in right to work states or Mexico. The people who stay in Detroit are left to a life of poverty and looting. Abandoned houses are squatted in and all the copper is stripped and sold for scrap. People are shot daily.
If you want to end up like Europe, vote like they do. Govern like they do. I know for a fact, that in Paris, they even tax your assets and not just your earnings. Our poor are better off than their middle class.
Sadly, most on this forum will disagree with me. But I say, if you love your freedom, you must become self reliant. You cannot vote for a government who buys votes by promising to rob the rich.
I hope this answers your question.
Craig
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gsreimers
Member
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2015 08:05pm
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On the island we are building on, you need a land use permit before you can do anything. In order to get the land use permit, you must first have the septic permit. After that, the building inspectors don't come out to look cabin builds on islands. One of my neighbors had some issues with his electrical contractor and wanted the building inspector to do an inspection to make sure everything was done correctly. The inspector told him he doesn't come out to island properties.
The interesting part, the assessor has been out twice in the last year to check the progress of my build and make sure my taxable value goes up accordingly.
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martym
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2015 10:51pm
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Salty Craig
I understand your concerns they are valid, but to me your logic is flawed. I don't think our problems are party based. In my opinion our problems are big business based. Our leaders our funded by and for the most part working for big business. Competing business but business none the less.
The mess that the G dub ya left for Obama who benefited? Most defiantly not the working class. Tax and spend? He left us THE largest national debt ever. To be fair he put 2 wars and thanks to the patriot act a whole new government agency all on credit.
I'm not sure who you are referring to pandering to the unions? Clinton was in office when the national railway act was passed. The company I work for spent millions lobbing for it. That bill alone has turned my blue caller middle class job into a low paid disposable work force. The money is still being made its just not making down to the working class. So if big business wont allow me to make a middle class income, and I shouldn't expect the government that's in the big business pocket to help.
I whole heartily agree that self reliance is our best hope.
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Salty Craig
Member
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2015 11:09pm
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martym
We mostly agree on the problems. We just point our fingers of blame in different directions. Pretty much get lied to by both sides. And for the record, there hasn't been a good republican since Reagan. Both Bushes were big government. Not baby killers, just big government progressives.
Obama care is a failure. Insurance prices are thru the roof. I trust your not still beating on the Obama drum.
True conservatism is the answer and that is hard to come by. The Democrats of old were more conservative than most of today's Republicans. Regardless of party, I stand by my opinion that government is rarely the answer.
Salty Craig
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Don_P
Member
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# Posted: 30 Nov 2015 11:48pm
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Ever been on a jobsite when something gets miscut? You can either call out the correct measurement and ask for another. Or you can pull out your tape and start trying to figure out who made the mistake. We kind of laugh about one of our local contractors. Work stops until blame is determined, then they can resume work. I really just needed the right board.
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2015 08:57am
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Quoting: martym I understand your concerns they are valid, but to me your logic is flawed. I don't think our problems are party based. In my opinion our problems are big business based. Our leaders our funded by and for the most part working for big business
Dont blame big business, they do not coerce you into buying their product, its done by lawmakers (politicians) All politicians are liars, I am a conservative, not a republican. I do like smaller less intrusive govt. I dont mean no govt, just limited.
Don, good story/example on the wrong cut board.
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Wilbour
Member
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2015 09:52am
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We are diverging from the original post but I read the book below (mostly since it's written a little over my simple mind) and it explained things explicitly.
One thing I found most striking is the idea that Liberals will always fight for the rights of all people regardless of race, religion ect. but in doing so have always neutralized our differences to the point there is little diversity.
To quote Artie Johnson "Very interesting"
The Great Divide: Why Liberals and Conservatives Will Never, Ever Agree by William D. Gairdner
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silverwaterlady
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2015 10:08am
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Salty Craig did you grow up in Detroit,live there?
I did. The vacant houses are not being torn down because the city is bankrupt. They are left to rot away.
I'm not going to get into the reasons why the city is so bad. I lived it,I know and it's heartbreaking.
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Salty Craig
Member
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2015 01:14pm
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silverwaterlady
I've never been there in my life. I'm just very aware of its problems. We all know that this can't become a race issue. That wouldn't be acceptable on this fine forum.
The ruination of our fine country is a crying shame. Regardless of Religion, Political party, color, sex, nationality, or wealth, the breakdown of the family is the source of our problems. The morals or lack there of that liberals promote and condone are indisputably destroying the family.
In an effort to not be to negative, we do live in prosperous times. The regulations are a pain but doable at this point. Oh, and I don't want people pooping in the creek upstream from me.
toyota_mdt_tech
Agree
To make full circle and get back on topic, how about those shocking regulations?
Salty Craig
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drb777
Member
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# Posted: 1 Dec 2015 01:47pm
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Salty Craig for president!
I do agree that "self reliance is our best hope."
And the best government is the least government.
I was actually surprised and relieved when I found out I had no specific permits/building codes to follow for my cabin build in the woods of NE Oklahoma. And, so far the accessor hasn't picked-up on my land "improvements". But expect the fly-overs to eventually change that.
Don't get me wrong, as an engineer I realize the need for safe and sanitary structures, but I don't agree that disinterrested county bureacrats really care a wit about my safety.
Happy and under the radar in Oklahoma.
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offgridliving
Member
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2015 07:43am
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I originally bought my land in Colorado in 1996. At that time, you could build a 100 sq ft structure without a permit. That is what I did initially. But, I got tired of living with very little space so I added on without asking permission. That was in 1998.
There has been considerable development in the area since then. It does not affect me much because my place is surrounded by National Forest, is on a private road with two locked gates. So, no one ever just wanders by.
But, I still worry about it.
I have spent time looking at land in other places just out of curiosity. What I have learned is that, even in the U.S., it is possible to find unregulated land where you can basically do whatever you want. More frequently, you can find rural land in counties where there is no zoning and planning commission, or it is so small that rules are rarely enforced unless you do something really stupid or seriously illegal. You can go to such places and basically stay below the radar.
One of the best websites I have found is called landwatch.com. This site features land all over the US, Canada, and other countries as well. It is a good place to start. The site is full of contact info. And just so you know, here is my little disclaimer. I have no personal or business association with that site in any way whatsoever. So, go check it out and, just like anything else, exercise good due diligence.
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Don_P
Member
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2015 07:46am - Edited by: Don_P
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Here is the latest call for committees;
http://media.iccsafe.org/news/icc-enews/2015v12n41/enews_121015.html
One interests me, I participated in it the first time around.
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Julie2Oregon
Member
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# Posted: 11 Dec 2015 03:47pm
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I guess I don't understand why the jump to solely blame the government. This kind of stuff usually starts with Joe (and Joanne) Q. Citizen. Either Joe and Joanne don't like the type of people who are moving in next to them or what they're doing so they call the authorities all of the time or Joe and Joanne want to build somewhere (or are rich enough to create a development of their own) and petition the local government entities for restrictive covenants and/or ordinances that ensure only dwellings that meet their particular standards will be built around them.
The rest of the rules come from a variety of sources -- lessons learned due to natural disasters and structural failures, people SUING because of systems failures, and the like.
It's not as if the government people sit around wondering, "Gee, how can we restrict property/personal rights and make it more difficult to build?" No. Average people call and petition THEM. They also get lobbied by people representing various organizations. This happens everywhere.
When I made some phone calls to the county officials where I'll be building, I got the impression that they're quite reasonable and they're not overly regulatory. The last thing they want to do is be bopping up to Bly Mountain 25 miles away several times to be inspecting every piece of wood and insulation that's going into my little cabin.
In fact, I had a long chat with the code enforcement officer. Nice guy. He even APOLOGIZED for the amount of regulation and said it was NEVER that way in Oregon until people started moving in from elsewhere and either doing stupid things or demanding stuff. Since they got calls, they had to pay more attention.
My visit and chats with the neighbors up there confirmed this. They said the county guys are nice and reasonable. They don't show up UNLESS SOMEONE CALLS THEM. And, indeed, there IS a Buttinsky here and there who WILL call, just because they put a lot of money into their places. So the code enforcement will show up with a sigh and say, "OK, look. You can't have grey water going directly onto the ground so, here. Put this bucket under the pipe and, when it's full, water your plants." Then he'll smile and walk away.
Yeah, I'm getting permits. Mostly because I do want the input and some technical oversight since I'm doing this alone and I also want a legal build so, if he chooses, my son won't have a problem selling the place if he doesn't want a cabin in Oregon after I'm gone. But I don't blame the government and "liberals" for all of this. I blame people who have too much time on their hands, people who can't mind their own business, and people who like to drop a dime and watch the fun. They're the ones who primarily demand all of the regs who hurt us. And they're everywhere.
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Allie
Member
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2017 11:26am
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I have a 1/3 acre vacant lakefront property in NW ontario in an unorganized/unincorporated area. Can anyone tell me if I need a building permit for a cottage and what the setback from the lake is and if there is a minimum lot size requirement? I have searched and searched government websites for these answers to no avail.
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ICC
Member
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2017 01:41pm
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Might try the local government office with real people in it. Those sorts of things are decided very much on a local level.
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toyota_mdt_tech
Member
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# Posted: 8 Oct 2017 03:20pm
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Quoting: SantanaWoods So all these books about tiny houses and off grid living come down to pipe dreams of authors...
Was this for a full time residence? You may fine a cabin can be used for up to 60 or 90 days a year and fit under smaller minimum footage. But wont work for full time. Well, time to attend a council meeting and propose they lower the min square footage. Small and tiny homes are becoming very popular, use the word "green" also, as they consume little resources to build, much less to heat and cool, plus the fact, a smaller footprint leaves more permeable land, much more affordable, most do them without any financing because of the nice low cost. So we can use the greenie tactics right back at them. Or you can build it on a frame, if its not a permanent structure, ie mobile, no permit. Even if its sets in one spot always. Some may limit a mobiles stay. Just some other avenues.
If they reject your idea at the meeting, keep at them, run adds in the papers, attend more meetings. Get the rules changed.
The tiny house movement is gaining momentum and I for one, think its a great idea. It will be beneficial to us cabineers.
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