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SantanaWoods
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2015 10:33pm - Edited by: SantanaWoods
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I have spend the last few days going from one city hall to another in different parts of where I live checking to see if the design of my cabin meets the requirements before looking for land.
I am shocked to find out that everywhere I checked minimum building area was close to 1000 sqr ft and building had to have a 32 ft façade! I am talking about the very agricultural/rural areas that one would not even think a building permit would be needed!
Stupid as it sounds I have to ask: so how do you guys and gals build your cabins??? What is the trick to jump over such idiotic regulations?
thanks in advance
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 28 Apr 2015 10:56pm
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Just a guess, but many are likely non permitted.
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SantanaWoods
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2015 12:38am
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I doubt if a non permitted structure here would last till end of the week. So all these books about tiny houses and off grid living come down to pipe dreams of authors who never actually practically went through the process???!!! I have read a dozen of them and not one ever mentioned these stuff.
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AK Seabee
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2015 01:53am - Edited by: AK Seabee
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Our cabin is in an unincorporated area. Another positive is no property taxes. Good luck with your search for a cabin site Santana.
edited for spelling. small keys and large thumbs 😉
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2015 02:01am
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There entire NA continent is covered by some version of building codes. Those govern how structures should be built. The enforcement of the codes can vary wildly from place to place within the same state. I am in the USA but I venture the same can be said for Canada.
Local zoning regulations are another thing to deal with. That is where the minimum square foot rules come from. Some locations require more than others. It becomes obvious that some locations want to keep the low budget builders out by requiring large buildings and by charging high fees.
One of the self promoting off grid writers / websites I know of lives in a more or less rural portion of a state with lax rural enforcement. Try many of the same things he promotes in a more urban setting in the same state and there would be "stop work" notices all over the place.
So to paraphrase.... It's dependent on "location, location, location".
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Jim in NB
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2015 06:52am
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Codes certainly vary with the area - to suggest that codes in rural areas are not sufficient (when followed) is wrong. In many cases urban building codes are way over the top not necessary due to actual risk assessment but to cosemtic standards. It is certainly smart to build safe and wise. And for those of us who like a little less government involvement, rural areas provide that. In Canada there is a National Building code that must be followed and provinces, municipalities, towns and villages can add to it - those cosemtic things that add and/or detract from property values. My cottage is in a subdivision that has convenants to protect against a few things - no junk laying around, single family residendes, no businesses. etc. Looking to build small in a developed urban area can be frustrating!
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SantanaWoods
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2015 08:38am
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I completely understand rules that ensure building safe and durable structures. It is even necessary. But these stupid dimension regulations are for charging more property tax and making everybody fit the mold. So we all have this problem, what is the solution?
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ColdFlame
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2015 10:22am
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Quoting: SantanaWoods So we all have this problem, what is the solution?
Unfortunately, we have to find alternate places to go where the restrictions are fewer, or, we should all be lobbying our elected representatives to start calling for change in an antiquated industry.
I am all for building codes to ensure that safety standards are met adequately (in fact, I think "minimum code" is often not good enough), but when it comes down to size of a building, it's absurd. It is 100% a cash grab and should be disputed.
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Gary O
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2015 10:32am
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Counties, provinces, parishes, cities, states, want their cuts, bottom line.
Here, it takes approx $3500 to get yer septic approved before you think about putting one in, aaaaand, here, you need the septic approval before you get the permit to build.
The money has been there to take when all is financed, but for the guy doin' it as he gets it, well, ya better be ready to fork over.
I know builders in our neck-o-the-woods that are building without permits.....but that's our area.
Heh, the county here can't afford to come out to harass and/or won't due to the population of renegades, of which I'm one.
Tricky thing, they will come out if someone turns you in.
So, we make pies and cookies for neighbors.
But, on a serious note, even after they come out, they don't do anything......then again, that's our neck-o-the-woods....
Quoting: SantanaWoods But these stupid dimension regulations are for charging more property tax
yup
Quoting: MtnDon Just a guess, but many are likely non permitted.
yup
If yer goin' the permit route, don't get all old and bent over tryin' to fight regs...just bend over.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2015 10:32am - Edited by: MtnDon
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Building size minimum is not necessarily a cash grab, IMO. The minimum size rules are more than likely in place because most of the land owners want larger size homes. And along with that they do not want others coming along and throwing up an 8 x 10 "shack", or parking an old travel trailer or an old school bus. That has the potential to bring down property values. They were there first and that means they get to make the rules. That is 100% legal.
As it is a zoning regulation or maybe a HOA rule it can be changed by a majority. Coming from the outside and asking for a change is going to be a very tough nut to crack though. We ran into rules like that when we were looking and just passed on it. We did find land with no restrictions other than sanitary and construction codes. No onerous zoning restrictions.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2015 11:55am - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech
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Quoting: SantanaWoods But these stupid dimension regulations are for charging more property tax and making everybody fit the mold. So we all have this problem, what is the solution?
Many areas are reconsidering the tiny smaller footprint options now. Its green afterall. So there is the beginnign of a shift that is more favorable to your smaller build. But its just getting going and will need to collect momentum/steam.
My county says I have to have a min square footage for a cabin. Cabin or vacation property with lower taxes can be used only up to 60 days a year. I can build without a septic, but must have an approved privvy. If there is a well, a full septic is required. Outside of those, there rsnt much more. I found my county very nice to deal with. And this was my first time ever pulling a permit. I have never build big enough to require it of it was done by a licenses builder who pulled the permit. In my state, only a lic builder or land owner can pull the permit, no one else. Taxes are reasonable etc.
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2015 01:46pm
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Santana- highly wise of you to look before you leap. You sound like you think that's how it is everywhere, correct me if I'm wrong. Most areas don't have such severe planning restrictions (zoning laws). The areas that do, have them because the people there insisted on it. I wouldn't want to live in such an area, even if my building plans fit the rules, because any time I did ANYTHING at all, the 'Neighborhood Improvement Commitee' would be watching me with binoculars. That's not what I went out to the woods for. You are looking in the wrong neighborhood. Good luck.
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tverga
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2015 05:01pm
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Put wheels under it and call it a camper.
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hattie
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2015 06:01pm
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We are in an unincorporated village in BC Canada. There aren't limits to how small a structure is but there is a permitting process. We are all on wells and septics here and I am glad there are regulations regarding this as it protects our drinking water. If our neighbour decided to build his septic system right beside our well that would not be approved. For that I am grateful.
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SantanaWoods
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# Posted: 29 Apr 2015 08:49pm - Edited by: SantanaWoods
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Quoting: tverga Put wheels under it and call it a camper.
I tried that too, they said it can be there only 6 months, then it has too leave
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SandyR
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# Posted: 1 May 2015 07:07pm
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Weird. I took all my plans last year to the building inspector and had no problems at all. We have a 20x20 cabin, with a loft. I can do anything I want except have a bedroom in the loft because I am not putting in permanent stairs to go into the loft. Yup, no one will ever sleep up there....
And also I needed to have the regular inspections done on the framing, insulation, and wood stove.
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SantanaWoods
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# Posted: 1 May 2015 09:35pm - Edited by: SantanaWoods
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Quoting: SandyR I took all my plans last year to the building inspector and had no problems at all.
where?
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SandyR
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# Posted: 2 May 2015 10:01pm - Edited by: SandyR
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Angelica NY
The inspector told us we could do anything we want cabin wise. He did tell me that as long as there wasn't a well we could put the outhouse anywhere we wanted and wouldn't need to have the health department inspector out. That and the stairs going to the loft were the only two things that he mentioned to me.
I could turn that land into anything I want says the zoning.
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SantanaWoods
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# Posted: 3 May 2015 08:22pm
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glad to hear things worked out for you, so I have to find a county with similar zoning up here.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 3 May 2015 09:06pm
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very often they are online.
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smallhomedreamer
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# Posted: 4 May 2015 06:41am
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i have found that the places that have minimal or no zoning are generally without utilities or not close to population and civilization (which in some ways may be nice) if you find otherwise it is rare I believe especially if price is reasonable.
i had to look in an entirely different State.
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SantanaWoods
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# Posted: 4 May 2015 10:37pm - Edited by: SantanaWoods
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I believe I have found a solution.
Apparently less than 110 sqr ft does not require a building permit. So it should be alright to build a two storey structure each floor with 110 area. One floor underground and one floor above.
What do you guys think? would it be legal?
ps I am going to name it Charlie (Chaplin, you guys can figure out why)
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 4 May 2015 10:50pm - Edited by: MtnDon
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Before you leap does the regulation allowing 110 sq ft make any reference to accessory building? Often those are allowed w/o a permit when they are constructed as a accessory to a larger w/permit building. Or, is there any reference to being non-habitable, or similar catch all words and phrases that are meant to preclude cooking, sleeping.... Locally these non permit buildings are restricted to a single floor.
My state's phrase that kills such thinking... "A building permit shall not be required for the following: .....One story detached accessory buildings used as tool and storage sheds, playhouses, and similar uses, provided the floor area does not exceed 200 square feet......."
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SantanaWoods
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# Posted: 4 May 2015 11:18pm - Edited by: SantanaWoods
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that I have to double check:
1 does it explicitly say one floor no basement or not
2 accessory structure to another one or not
3 how precisely they have defined "playhouse" 
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bldginsp
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# Posted: 4 May 2015 11:41pm
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Ask them, flat out, 'Will you allow me to live in it'.
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Littlecooner
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# Posted: 5 May 2015 09:01am - Edited by: Littlecooner
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Quoting: SantanaWoods I have spend the last few days going from one city hall to another in different parts of where I live checking to see if the design of my cabin meets the requirements before looking for
Most Cities and Towns in 2015 do have Zoning requirements. As population density increases, so does the rules and requirements. Have you looked at the unincorporated areas of you county? If you have a county with huge population, it could have zoning, but if the unincorporated area truly are rural, agricultural lands, there is a great probability there is no zoning requirements and if they are, they will be less restrictive that the Towns and Cities.
I have to agree with the zoning requirements, it protects property values and communities. If you desire to deviate from the norm, then find a place that is conducive to that activity. Strict rule that works 100 % of the time = The smaller the number of people in a given area, the smaller the rules to live and build in that area.
Why would you want a "Small Cabin" inside a city anyway? My perception of the "Small Cabin" is to have a "get away" from the asphalt jungle where life is slower, their are fewer people and more wildlife and native vegetation. Inside the city they are called "Garden Homes" and is some communities, you can buy a postage size lot and put your "Small Cabin" there, complete with all the services that come with living surrounded by people such as sewer, garbage service, cable tv, nosey neighbors, loud neighbors, pesky neighborhood dogs, a nosey policeman to drive by every hour. Like MtdDon says, its all about Location, Location and Location, the three important things they teach about purchasing property and property values.
If you really do want to be inside a city, call some of the local real estate people and ask about subdivision that are for "Garden Homes" or small foot print houses. That appear to be the trend for that is growing in our country, especially east of the Mississippi river. Then you can build your small cabin among like minded people with small cabins for neighbors. You are correct in doing your research, I just think you need to modified some of the technical wording of what you are looking for in a property. Those government agencies are there to just supply people with the rules.
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flyrdr
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# Posted: 11 May 2015 08:41pm
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In my opinion building codes should state maximum square footage, not minimum, for lots of practical reasons. They have it all wrong
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KinAlberta
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# Posted: 28 Nov 2015 10:09pm - Edited by: KinAlberta
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Quoting: MtnDon My state's phrase that kills such thinking... "A building permit shall not be required for the following: .....One story detached accessory buildings used as tool and storage sheds, playhouses, and similar uses, provided the floor area does not exceed 200 square feet......."
Playhouses? Aren't all cabins, playhouses?
I've always dreamed of building a multi-building cabin. All raised up on one high deck. Each bedroom would be its own building, the living room another building as for the kitchen etc. (Basically a South Pacific pavilion style arrangement but designed for the north so each would be super insulated.). Maybe just keep each one under a 100, 200... sq ft.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2015 07:09am - Edited by: Don_P
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Quoting: MtnDon A building permit shall not be required for the following: .....One story detached accessory buildings
Nothing precludes the multi building approach but they are not exempt. First question I've been asked "What is the building accessory to?"
The accessory buildings need a main residence first in an area where codes are enforced. If codes aren't being enforced building multiple structures vs just building a 800 sf or whatever size structure is probably more expensive.
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toyota_mdt_tech
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# Posted: 29 Nov 2015 10:50am
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Quoting: SantanaWoods I completely understand rules that ensure building safe and durable structures. It is even necessary. But these stupid dimension regulations are for charging more property tax and making everybody fit the mold
Agreed, when you see 1000 sq foot minimum and an the facade, its no longer about safety, but appearance and tax collection. The tiny homes that are trailers are not permanent, even if they set in one place indefinitely and the axle is removed. Its still mobile and gets around building permits, but you are limited to under 500 sq feet, I think the actual number is 450 or less. (do a search for "Park Models" is what they are referred to as) But some jurisdictions even limited those, not many. Areas will vary. Where I built, they welcomed me, was very nice, no special hoops, they looked at my plans (took a week and mailed back with red markings on changes) , then told me they wanted 5/8 siding and one tempered window is about the only changes they made. As for the tempered window, I think they looked at the front elevation wrong and thought my front window was closer to the door than it was. But I did it anyway.
States can be more restrictive, ie California comes to mind, but local counties can vary also and be very restrictive vs other counties in the same area. What state and general area, ie central Cal etc?
Its also going to be based on population density too. In my resident county, we have 780 people per sq mile, but in my cabin county, we have 7.8 people per square mile (these are avg, can be found on state census)
The county I built in, actually looks forward to cabins, first off, they enjoy inspecting the cabins, its enjoyable for them, get out in the country (this is what they told me), and the added revenue in a county where there isn't as much. They were helpful, not overbearing at all and pleasant to deal with. I do not like nazi regulations such as what you have some up against. Try the next country, one with less population density will usually be better.
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