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paulz
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# Posted: 6 Jun 2014 07:27pm
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A buddy of mine who's a pretty savvy old woods guy was suggesting a couple of interesting tidbits I thought I'd bounce off you all. One, he said there is or was a longstanding law or rule that you could cut any trees off your property unpermitted if they were used in the construction of your residence. Around here, if you need a permit to cut more than a certain amount or heritage trees on your own property.
Second, he thinks one can dig a cave, room, house or whatever into the side of your hill, no permit required.
My friend is in Oregon, anyone else heard similar things in other states?
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OwenChristensen
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# Posted: 6 Jun 2014 09:23pm
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Well we sure can here in MN.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 6 Jun 2014 10:45pm
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NC has, or did have, a similar exemption. Ungraded timber from the landowners property could be used for their residence. Several other states have native lumber laws. My state, VA, follows the IRC which requires all structural lumber for use in a habitable structure be graded. NY and several other states allow the sawyer to sign that the lumber meets or excedes #2 grade, some require a short grader training session before the sawyer is allowed to sign for the lumber. There is an exemption in my state for agricultural use. There is provision in the IBC for the building official to accept an engineer's stamp. So I can hire a grader to come and stamp lumber or I can hire an engineer to ok lumber. Actual enforcement of these requirements varies quite a bit from one jurisdiction to another. I have been trained by the largest grading authority but do not carry a card or stamp as this takes a very healthy ongoing chunk of change. Some allow me to harvest and use timber from the jobsite using my judgement, some require a stamp. Basically, ask the building official.
A habitable dugout would follow the rules of the IRC, but again, your mileage may vary.
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paulz
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# Posted: 7 Jun 2014 10:25am
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I have a steep hillside leading to flat ground and the prospects of digging into the hillside for maybe a garage or shop are somewhat intriguing, particularly if not regulated. Also have a backhoe, but the thought doing this sounds a bit scary. Guess I should look for cave digging forums. 
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OwenChristensen
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# Posted: 7 Jun 2014 04:42pm - Edited by: OwenChristensen
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I kinda' like the idea, although, I'm afraid of frost damage. Unless the ground is real dry when it freezes, or if the wall is warmed be winter heat from inside, it will break. Most homes avoid this , because they always loose some heat and keep the frost at bay. On a seasonal cabin that isn't heated except for weekends, it will do damage.
As far as cutting your own trees, not being able to is something I couldn't fathom. After all I planted almost every tree I have and cut them when I want. Nobody else has had a hand in my forest. I do sell some now and then to log cabin builders.
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MtnDon
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# Posted: 7 Jun 2014 06:40pm
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Quoting: OwenChristensen As far as cutting your own trees, not being able to is something I couldn't fathom. After all I planted almost every tree I have and cut them when I want. Nobody else has had a hand in my forest. I do sell some now and then to log cabin builders.
It depends on the language in the building code used in the state where the building is to be located. NM specifies that the structural materials used meet the specs given in the IRC. It doesn't matter where the tree grew. Here in NM everything hinges on the grade stamp. There are many things that affect the grade a piece of lumber gets.
Slightly off the topic, though related... a grade stamp on a piece of lumber applies only to the original piece. This is because the location of knots and other defects influences the grade. A length of #2 can easily be degraded to utility grade by ripping for example.
reference
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MtnDon
Member
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# Posted: 7 Jun 2014 07:17pm
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hardwood and softwood grading
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Don_P
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# Posted: 7 Jun 2014 07:55pm
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Owen it is a real sore spot for me but I do see both sides of the issue. By grading lumber it is sorted into strength groups by someone who is trained . When an architect or engineer, or a span table says that a #2 can span some distance, the piece of wood used meets or surpasses the needed strength. Most people really don't look at lumber as they build or if they do, they really don't fully understand what they are looking at. From what I just googled, it was dated info, MN has some areas that allow ungraded lumber and some areas that do not. I have tried unsuccessfully to get my state to adopt a native lumber law. I would like for it to be accompanied by a short training requirement to ensure that the sawyer does have a good sense of what he is providing. At the state level they have said that my training meets the intent of the code, that someone knowledgeable is looking over the lumber. At the local level, our building official is a "by the book" kind of guy. He does allow me to use an engineer to grade. I have trained an engineer to grade. On a practical level there is a reason for the inspectors requirement. The engineer's liability insurance would cover his stamp, my liability insurance would not in the event of a failure. So, there's always two sides.
On the flip side of MtDon's comment, I can also raise the grade at the cutting bench by removing a controlling defect. For high stress parts of a frame I'm looking for the best wood in the pile as I cut and sorting through the pile as I go. Often a defect can be cut out on the way to making headers, cripples, etc.
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OwenChristensen
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# Posted: 8 Jun 2014 07:12am
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Oh I see it. Cookie cutter homes popping up in the burbs, built by contractors, financed to the hilt, ten time the size anyone should need.
That house never really is paid off and might move through a dozen so called owners. Anyone with a interest in it, wants everything detailed out, so their investment is sound, and they want our government to see to it.
I'm a lumber grader too. I can see a knot, I can tell species, I can even look down the edges from the end. Some people can't, but judging by all the junk laying along side the units at Menard some aren't too bad at it. I have worked on old rough sawn studded homes. I can see that they were made from larger trees with less knots and of course, larger nominal sizes. Now days they make a couple of 2x4's out of a stick full of knots. The codes are good for the masses, I don't want to be one of them.
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zelig
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# Posted: 8 Jun 2014 08:54am
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Quoting: OwenChristensen The codes are good for the masses, I don't want to be one of them.
Sounds to me like you're one of them crazy types that thinks their own thoughts and accepts responsibility for their actions.
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Don_P
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# Posted: 8 Jun 2014 09:20pm - Edited by: Don_P
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The piles laying alongside the units in big box stores are kind of interesting. When they started looking at what was rejected it showed some trends. We were told to watch consumers selecting lumber and it is informative to watch. People reject wane and ugly but generally tend to overlook knot size and location, reaction wood, things that really matter. The big boxes started requiring the producers to sort out waney edged pieces and add another stamp along with the official grade stamp "Prime" or a similar stamp. These are not really a strength grade they are simply a consumer driven appearance grade. If you think about how a tree grows, the clearest, strongest pieces are generally the outer jacket boards. When wane is excluded they can be pulling the strongest boards from the pack.
I have pulled below grade lumber from packs, but it is rarer to pull below grade pieces than most realize. A true #2 stick is not necessarily pretty. We got a pack from one of the discount building supplies one time and initially thought they had pulled a fast one. I got a helper and we rolled through the pack and regraded every piece. There was not a single stick below grade but I realized where the wood the big boxes were culling was going. It was not pretty but was certainly up to the required strength for the spans and loads.
When we were taught to grade, the first thing you do when you approach the board is orient yourself, where is the heart? Branches grow from the heart and are generally truncated cones within the board. By knowing where you are in the tree you know where the knot is going within the board and whether the knot you are looking at is getting larger or smaller. Next identify the controlling defect, is it a knot, slope of grain, wane, split, shake, skip, decay, crook, twist or bow? Determine the cross sectional area compromised or the degree of defect and assign a grade. This then correlates to allowable design strength values. On a grading line the grader has about 3 seconds to view all 4 sides, roll through all that in his head and make the call. On the job I have as much time as I need to look over a piece and make the call, part of the reason I would like for carpenters to be trained to grade and then allowed to do so. Whether one of the masses or not, understanding the how and why of the way things work is good.
We have specialized to the point where basic knowledge is stratified and by not being able to see the whole we often fall short of the intended goal. The class I was a part of posted the highest scores ever recorded. I was also the first carpenter to train with the graders. By doing so we have a better understanding of the whole rather than just our small specialty.
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creeky
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# Posted: 9 Jun 2014 05:14pm
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Nice post don.
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