This time it is final. - Small Cabin Forum (1)

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optimistic Member	# Posted: 22 Jun 2012 05:01pm Reply Hello my fellow cabin lovers! After almost signing a contract on a 5 acre piece of land in upstate NY a few months ago, I decided to bite my lips and cancel the deal. It was just too expensive for me and I didn't want to commit so much money and not see a cabin in place for such a long time. I wanted to find something cheaper that will allow me to take my time getting it set up. I just came back from Sullivan county's land auction.... I recommended it to anyone. It was very intense but people were getting land in upstate NY for pennies on the dollar. I am the proud owner of a 16 acre piece of beautiful land in upstate NY. I am actually buying it with a friend of mine and we intend on sharing it. We will each build a cabin on it and share a road and some other improvements. I'm hoping to start it going by mid July. Some queries: 1. My wife is pushing me to price out buying a shell instead of going for a complete build myself. Any thoughts on how much should 400sqft shell should be? 2. A friend told me that he built a simple septic system himself that although illegal, works totally fine: he dug a hole in the ground, buried a plastic drum in it, punched holes, and filled it with rocks 3/4 of the way. He then closed it, covered it with some sand, and connected a pipe to it for ventilation. His regular toilet flushes into it as well as his shower and sink. Legalities aside, he claims it works perfectly and that "this is how they used to do it". Will this really work? 3. I feel like those surveys don't really help with knowing where your property lines lay. I want to know exactly where they are, what are my options or how would you go about doing that? I am so excited I can barely sleep... Pictures coming soon!

MJW Member	# Posted: 22 Jun 2012 05:15pm Reply Congrats on your land! As for the septic, we are planning something like this when we build. We went and spent a day with a guy in KY a couple of weeks ago that put a system like this in a couple of years ago and says it is working just fine for him and claims folks he knows have been using them for years. http://www.wikihow.com/Construct-a-Small-Septic-System

VTweekender Member	# Posted: 22 Jun 2012 05:55pm - Edited by: VTweekender Reply For the shell you could price something out at Woodtex, they are up there in upstate NY, their poolhouse would make a nice cabin, just delete the double doors on the end and add a window there http://www.woodtex.com/poolhouses.asp .....use the price calculator with the zip of your land to price it out delivered to a crushed stone pad. Note, what they have for "log cabins" is just their shed with log siding with porch and grossly overpriced, don't bother even looking at them, but the shed shells are decent and priced reasonable. Maybe upgrade the floor joists to 2x6 for a couple bucks and you have what you would stick build actually. I kind of like their poolhouse because of the 7 1/2 ft walls, usually you have like 6 ft walls on the shed shells. For the survey, take what you can find from the town and the deed then you will have to find a pin or marker in at least one corner to get close. On my land, I found only 1 line marker and went from there, it was blazed into trees about eye level with a knife, then painted orange, bark had grown around the markers in the trees over the years and was hard to detect unless looking for them, but that got me started and I was able to mark my lines fairly close. I like the septic MJ posted to as well...but don't get caught.

Sustainusfarm Member	# Posted: 22 Jun 2012 06:17pm Reply I like bungalow in a box....look them up on the web at bungalowinabox.com I think it is facinating how they put up their small cabins!

Sustainusfarm Member	# Posted: 22 Jun 2012 06:54pm Reply Quoting: optimistic 2. A friend told me that he built a simple septic system himself that although illegal, works totally fine: he dug a hole in the ground, buried a plastic drum in it, punched holes, and filled it with rocks 3/4 of the way. He then closed it, covered it with some sand, and connected a pipe to it for ventilation. His regular toilet flushes into it as well as his shower and sink. Legalities aside, he claims it works perfectly and that "this is how they used to do it". Will this really work? The way they "used to do it " harmed the environment, so that is why we have leach fields now. If you can imagine an outhouse is basically the same thing as the pit your friend built with one big exception....very little excess liquid. The outhouse just composts its "crap" into the ground and when the pit is full you move the outhouse to a new location and fill the previous hole. With your friends setup he is adding excess water and fluid to a small pit and that will leach the whole mess deeper into the ground in one concentrated area that could contaminate your ground water! A leach field seperates the solids from the liquids and spreads the liquid out over a large area where it can be diluted by the ground and rain water. The solids are held in a septic tank for pumping out every 2-5 yrs. Now...I have a pit like your friends ...but I only have one sink from the kitchen that dumps grey water into it... Just my observations and opinions...

toyota_mdt_tech Member	# Posted: 22 Jun 2012 07:10pm - Edited by: toyota_mdt_tech Reply Optimistic, nice work. Hey, a permit for a cabin may not be obtainable in many areas without a septic design/permit. As for a 400 sq foot shell, I did a 288 sq foot and the dried in shell cost me about $6000. I could of went much cheaper, but I do not like OSB period and my T1-11 is actual 5/8" plywood type. I used a full footing/stemwall, not piers/blocks. 400 sq feet, expect to spend 5000-8000 would be my guess. Less if you cut corners (you can and stil be safe and legal) but its yours and its harder to bgo back and di it over plus more expensive.

Anonymous	# Posted: 23 Jun 2012 05:03am Reply The first thing you need to do is to make a visit to your city or county halls building department. Find out about permits needed,restrictions etc....

Malamute Member	# Posted: 23 Jun 2012 08:46am - Edited by: Malamute Reply Congrats on the land! I don't think the way your friend described building a small septic system is a good idea, it can be done much better for not much effort. The small system in the link should function properly, though in a septic system, there shouldnt be any fall in the lines, or very very little. The 1/4" per foot of fall is for regular drain lines, but in a septic, you don't want it all at the end of the line, it should disperse equally along the line. The two tanks, or two chambers in a regular septic tank serve a purpose. The solids are digested and shouldnt have to be pumped out if you dont put things in the system that won't digest, (like egg shells, feminine products etc), and dont use bleach or antibacterial soaps in the system. There are enzymes that function to break down the stuff in the system, and to work properly, you can't be killing them with bleach and other things. I've never ever had a septic system pumped out. When they function properly, they don't even smell as bad as you'd expect. Like others have mentioned, most small systems arent legal, though many of us have used them for temporary use until a regular system could be afforded or built. Not putting your grey water into a small septic can help tremendously in extending its life. It's easy to overload a small system with grey water, depending on how well your ground percs, and how much grey water you run through it.

neb Member	# Posted: 23 Jun 2012 03:38pm Reply awesome!!! Do u have any pictures???

optimistic Member	# Posted: 23 Jun 2012 04:40pm Reply Thanks for the great info!!!! Malamute - do you have a link to where they show how to make a simple septic system like oyu described? also, if I won't run grey water into it- where should I run it to? another system? if so- can you show one? Another question: i spoke with my friend and we were thinking of getting a camper/rv/or something along those lines to put there while we build. If you had to pick something to put up on your land temporarily, to stay in it while you build, what will you get?

VTweekender Member	# Posted: 23 Jun 2012 04:51pm Reply MJW posted the link to the septic.... I would get a cheap old motorhome and register it so I could drive it out of there to the nearest waste water plant and get rid of the grey and black water.

Borrego Member	# Posted: 23 Jun 2012 04:56pm Reply Re the septic: the small community where I live has been doing septic via the barrel method for 70 years, no problems. You might have issues as sustainusfarm mentioned depending on your soil. In the desert, the natural 'percolation' takes care of it, plus our water level is 400 - 600 ft down. So at least in this real world scenario, it works, can't tell about yours.... When we got our acreage, we found a 1968 trailer for $1200 which has worked out great for us. We'll keep it once our build is done for guests. Or if I get kicked out

optimistic Member	# Posted: 23 Jun 2012 05:27pm Reply I am 100% going the camper/trailer route. I saw several on clist for 1200-1500$. I never been in one of these.... How they work? Judging from VTweekender remark about waste - It stores the waste on site. How about power? where does it get the power? does it have a built in generator? Does anyone know a good guide for a "trailer noob"?

VTweekender Member	# Posted: 23 Jun 2012 05:41pm Reply It will have a fresh water tank to store the water you will use. It will also have a grey water and black water tank. The power is setup to run off the batteries in the system, it will have a inverter to run 110v stuff or you can not use the inverter and run 12v stuff as well...most likely will have propane for the fridge and stove...also there will be an "inlet" plug on the outside if you want to hook to the grid or a generator.

PA_Bound Member	# Posted: 23 Jun 2012 08:09pm Reply Opti... congratulations on finding and purchasing your land. Now the fun begins! Regarding campers... there is much there to learn also- almost as much as building a cabin. But here is the first question you need to consider. What kind of camper do you want? Start with the obvious- do you want a trailer or a motor home? A motor home is self-contained, that you can drive back and forth to your land. A trailer you have to tow back and forth, or tow to your land and leave it there. Your answer to that question will help answer your questions on power, waste storage, etc.

PA_Bound Member	# Posted: 23 Jun 2012 08:10pm Reply By the way, there are +'s and -'s to both of those.

optimistic Member	# Posted: 23 Jun 2012 10:37pm Reply PA-Bound! how are you buddy? How is the cabin in PA coming along? I think I will go with a trailer. I will have a diy septic system and a grey water leeching field. I will want to hook these to the trailer. Also, I will try to set up a rain collection system. I am confused about how the trailer gets power... ? I would like to buy the solar system or at least some of its parts and connect the trailer to until I have the cabin up. Not sure if that is possible. VTWeekend - you mention propane fridge - I do want to have a fridge in my off grid cabin. Will a propane fridge use a lot less electricity than a regular fridge? I am assuming that I will need to have a bigger propane tank. How much propane these use?

Malamute Member	# Posted: 24 Jun 2012 12:23am - Edited by: Malamute Reply A camper needs power from the grid, or from its own generator, or one you provide. It could also be provided with 12 volt power from solar panels. I lived in an older Winnebago for a couple years while building a couple places to sell, and my own little cabin. I always ran the grey water directly out on the ground wherever I was, it never caused any problems for me. You can make a simple leaching system for grey water, it would help keep your septic system cleaner longer, though if you just made the septic with enough line length and gravel fields, it would be alright. Propane fridges don't need any electricity at all to run. Most campers have them, they can run on propane, 120volt, or 12 volt. They are usually expensive to buy, so if you buy a camper with a decent one in it, you can use it in your cabin later. Same with other appliances in the camper. I really liked the propane furnace that's in my Winnebago. I'm saving it when I end up selling the Winny. The propane company I get service from had a smaller tank they would deliver/rent, I think it was a 100 or 125 gallon tank. it looked just like the larger 250/500 gallon tanks, but didn't need the same type lines, I just had some long rubber lines for mine. They came by every month or so and topped it off. I hate fooling with propane tanks (and running out!), especially in winter, so that solved that issue.

PA_Bound Member	# Posted: 24 Jun 2012 08:33am - Edited by: PA_Bound Reply I think a trailer is good choice. I have a folding tent trailer, and looked very closely at buying a 33' trailer for my land, before I decided to bite the bullet and build a cabin. But all that is a story for another thread. As Malamute indicated, power for a trailer comes from either a "shore conection" (to the power-grid, a generator or some other source of AC power), or from a (or a couple) on-board batteries. Campers also have inverters, which will convert the battery power to AC in the trailer. The batteries work well, but you still have to charge them. Charging in normally done by either connecting the trailer to shore power at home or at a campground, or even when connected to a tow vehicle with the engine running (off the vehicles aleternator). In your case, with a stationary trailer and no grid power, you will have to find another way to charge the battery(ies). Here is where you need either a generator or, even better, a solar setup. Assuming you have an opening in the tree canopy to get good sunlight, solar for your needs is definitely possible. And several people on this forum are very knowledgeable about how to do it and can get you hooked up (I'm learning about solar also). Regarding refridgerators, for your use-case propane is the way to go. You don't have AC power, and 12v is really only good for keeping a cold refridgerator cold, as you move daily between evening stops- where you switch back to shore power or propane. One note here- the newer, larger RV refridgerators do require a 12v feed these days. It is used to power the electronic refridgerator controls and interior light. I don't care about the light, but the controls are essential. My cabin is going to have batteries anyway so it's no big deal, but something to keep in mind. Smaller camper refridgerators however, do not require this 12v feed. They can run on propane alone.

steveqvs Member	# Posted: 24 Jun 2012 04:24pm Reply I have a camper that I have parked at my land. What they say above is true. Also wal-Mart used to sell a camper 101 book in the rv section usually by automotive. We recently sprung for electric but before then it was a generator and 2 batteries. Most campers have a holding tank for freshwater. I use a small pump and (electricity or generator) and jugs of water to pump into the holding tank. Depending on the camper could be 50 to 75 gallons. Then there is a blackwater tank. Usually toilet and sometimes sinks showers, but usually there is a greywater tank for the shower and sink drains. A small dc pump pumps water to the shower and sinks. That runs from the battery on your camper. Hope this clears up some questions.

optimistic Member	# Posted: 24 Jun 2012 07:41pm Reply All great stuff people. Thanks! I am looking into campers. Some people state that they do not have paper/registration.... Is that a major issue? I would like to better educate myself about solar systems. Any good guides out there? Also, I am looking to read up a bit about RV's/campers if someone can give a good link. This is very exciting. I cannot wait! I am driving up there in a couple of weeks so I will take photos to share.

VTweekender Member	# Posted: 24 Jun 2012 09:29pm Reply I am not sure about NY state, but here in MA without a title you can't reg it. I would inquire with the registry what you would need for paperwork to register it, other than that buy it for a song, put some plates on it and cross your fingers for a one way trip.

Anonymous	# Posted: 24 Jun 2012 09:35pm Reply Are you allowed to park a rv on your land? Some countys allow it for a certain time period some not at all. Before you spend money on a rv maybe you should find out?

PA_Bound Member	# Posted: 25 Jun 2012 09:43am Reply Opti... Anonymous has a good point here. You should probably find out what the rules are for parking an RV on your land, as it may help answer your question about titles. As noted, without a title you can't register the camper- so no license plates. If you can park the camper on your land permanently, and intend to do that, then you may not care about registration so you may not need to worry about a title (you'll still have to get it to your land initially, and without license plates you'll have to move it by tow truck or trailer-on-trailer, or take your chances in which case buy it from somewhere close by). If there are limits on how long a camper can stay on your land, then you'll want to license it and keep it current even if you never intend to move it, regardless of the rules. In which case a title will be required. In areas with time restrictions, current licenses are often one item zoning officials look at if someone complains. If it doesn't have a current license, it likely isn't moving. So if there are time restrictions, keep it licensed, keep the tires good, and don't build a deck around it. Make it look like you could move it on a few minutes notice if you had/wanted to.

Sustainusfarm Member	# Posted: 25 Jun 2012 10:04am Reply I had a neighbor down the street that had 2 campers parked on their land...they were set really far back off the road. They were caught and county told them they could only park them there for 2 weeks at a time...they filed a variance to allow them to remain...that did not go through. It is permissable to build a big shed/pole building on the land and park the campers inside when not being used. That is what they did! I then thought...With what they spent on the pole building they could have put up a great cabin with electric, well and septic!

AYP1909 Member	# Posted: 25 Jun 2012 10:05am Reply Quoting: optimistic I feel like those surveys don't really help with knowing where your property lines lay. I want to know exactly where they are, what are my options or how would you go about doing that? Optimistic, I have been involved in too many property disputes to list; the number one issue being that people really don't know where their property lines are and the only way to determine for certain is to have a professional land surveyor make informed interpretations of the deed boundaries followed by accurate measurements and establishment of the property boundaries. If you truly want to know where your property lines lay, there is no substitute. You can pay a land surveyor now or pay an attorney (and likely a land surveyor) later when you go to court for encroachment.

PA_Bound Member	# Posted: 25 Jun 2012 11:05am Reply +1 to AYP1909's posting! Absolutely correct! Been there... done that!

optimistic Member	# Posted: 26 Jun 2012 10:05pm Reply A lot of points to consider. First off, not that it is a very good indication, I did see several campers parked on lots on my street. They are very rusty and look like they have been there for a long time. I will call some local surveyors next week to see how much they charge. Is it worth while even calling the town to see if they have any free info on my property lines?

PA_Bound Member	# Posted: 27 Jun 2012 07:55am Reply Opti... since you bought this land, do you have a deed? The first step is to look a the property description included on the deed itself. Along with the distance and direction for each leg of the property boundary (which you often need surveying tools to work with), it may contain "calls" for natural or man-made features on the property that often can be identified and located without tools. While I doubt they will identify the entire property boundary, they will help identify pieces of it- and maybe enough to figure the rest out. If you don't have a deed (which wouldn't make sense if you own the property, unless you haven't closed on it yet), you can get copies of previously recorded deeds for your property from the Recorder of Deeds at the local court house. Each of those deeds should have the same description.

Sustainusfarm Member	# Posted: 27 Jun 2012 09:03am Reply Most towns or counties will have a "plat of survey" on record from previous divisions of land...I would start there as a cheap option as a surveyer will charge at least $500 and probably more ($1000-$2000) if you have many acres for them to walk....

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