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simon
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# Posted: 1 Jan 2012 05:36am
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Hi guys,
Just doing some more thinking and planning. We only got a couple months before the big move, and need to get solid solutions to live full time in a RV trailer on our land, so we can build our cabin.
What would you do about the black, gray, and fresh water tanks?
The only solution I can think of, is a compost toilet.. That eliminates black water tank all together.
But what to do about the fresh water tank, and gray water..
We don't have a well on site yet, but will be doing that first when we set up shop out there. But we are going to need a short term solution to get us by until we get a well dug.. And I assume I need to start looking into putting in a gray water system. But not sure where to start looking for that.
So looking for input and ideas... What would you do?
This is a big move for us. Craziest thing we've ever done.. Packing up our entire life into an RV, and heading to our land 13 hours away.. Starting over from scratch. Looking for jobs, the whole nine.. Building a whole new life in a new state.. Pretty scary.
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turkeyhunter
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# Posted: 1 Jan 2012 08:02am
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sounds like quite the adventure....... :-)
outhouse does away with the holding tank/blackwater
grey water-----dig up a hole, away from where your well is.... bury a plastic 5 gallon bucket with lid....drill holes in bucket, and fill half way with large gravel,plumb your grey water to that ....will work,people in hunting camps have these all over the USofA.
fresh water---get to know a local and get fresh water from their well, or maybe a local store/ gas station that you do business with will let you get water---it can be done----keep us updated in your travels---good luck!!!!
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Martian
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# Posted: 1 Jan 2012 08:04am - Edited by: Martian
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Been there; Done that! It is scary to turn loose of all you know and trust that everything will work out. Relax. If you keep your eye on the goal and are willing to do whatever it takes to succeed, then the outcome will be positive.
To address your questions:
Fresh water- fill the tank before you get to the property. Get a bunch of 5gal jugs for carrying fresh water, and fill them on your trips to town as they get empty. Cut down on your water usage; make it a game to see how little you can use each day. Every now and then, rent a motel room and take a long, hot shower if you feel the need for one, or give yourself permission to take a long shower before going into town for a refill. When at sea, each person was alloted one gallon/day of fresh water use, but of course, there was plenty of salt water for rinsing dishes and bodies. On land, I figured two gallons was plenty. A gallon milk jug provides enough water for an effective shower, unless you have long hair. A fresh water source would be very high on my priority list; I can get by without just about everything else.
Grey water-run a surface line 20-30' downhill and discharge it there. Cover the end of the pipe with gravel or small rocks to keep critters out. You aren't going to be using enough water to worry about it creating a cesspool.
Black water-Buy several large, 39gal, black plastic trashcans. Collect your waste in a 5gal bucket (a toilet seat fits right on top of a 5gal sheetrock mud bucket). I use saw dust, which I keep in a pail beside the bucket, to cover the waste. Put about an inch of sawdust in the bottom before using to keep stuff from sticking to the bucket, and then sprinkle on more sawdust after each use. Dump the bucket into a trash when half full. Drill a few holes into the bottom of the trash cans for the urine to drain. Set the trashcans downwind in a sunny spot away from the cabin/RV.
Thinking of this phase as an "adventure" makes it fun. Remember, the difference between adventure and adversity is attitude! Have fun.
Tom
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turkeyhunter
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# Posted: 1 Jan 2012 09:21am
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Quoting: Martian Grey water-run a surface line 20-30' downhill and discharge it there. Cover the end of the pipe with gravel or small rocks to keep critters out. You aren't going to be using enough water to worry about it creating a cesspool.
that what we do here in the south as well.........did not want to get the "GREEN POLICE" after him for doing it......;-)
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Rifraf
Member
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# Posted: 1 Jan 2012 12:27pm
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If you have a truck, you can haul 50 gallon water container and fill it every so often.
My brother did this when he first bought his farm house.. He bought an old beat up truck for 500 bucks, and put 50 gallon water container on the truck bed. Would drive the truck to town fill up the container , and park it next to his house on an incline so a hose could be ran to gravity feed water as needed from the tank into the house. Heating the water was easy since he had power. His tank was black, no light got into it.
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simon
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# Posted: 1 Jan 2012 02:43pm
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A couple of those ideas have crossed my mind, a tank for the back of the truck, and 5 gal jugs, to fill the tank. Drinking water from Walmart too.. That wouldn't be too bad.. But yeah the "green" police concerns me. The sawdust toilet is illegal in NYS.. NSF certified compost toilets are legal though.. And the water shed protection agency might not like me dumping gray water.
I figure I can move the hose every week to a different spot and there wouldn't be any build up. But I'd like to have a legal, more permanent solution, that I can hook the cabin to when it's finished.
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Martian
Member
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# Posted: 1 Jan 2012 03:56pm
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Quoting: simon And the water shed protection agency might not like me dumping gray water. I figure I can move the hose every week to a different spot and there wouldn't be any build up. But I'd like to have a legal, more permanent solution, that I can hook the cabin to when it's finished.
Then, you need to research grey water requirements for your area. If septics are allowed, you should be able to put in a grey water system with a grease trap, a settling tank, and leech field.
The method above is a temporary solution while you develop your site.
Tom
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steveqvs
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# Posted: 1 Jan 2012 05:46pm - Edited by: steveqvs
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Water in 5 gal jugs from a nearby Corp of Engineers campground.
Some even have hot showers. If your close to one of course.
maybe this will help
New York State Department of Environmental Conservation
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darz5150
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# Posted: 1 Jan 2012 06:01pm
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I built a "water wagon" out of an old boat trailer that I got for free. I put 1 x1 steel tubes arcross the frame to beef it up enough to hold a 325 gallon water tank that I picked up 2nd hand for $100. I shortened the tongue of the trailer about 4 feet to make it easier to manuever around. I fill it up twice a month at a nearby towns water depot for $2.00 each fill. I think most major towns have a place for construction companies to get water for building projects available. If you can't find one of these places you can fill it at a nighbors or friends house in about an hour.
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wakeslayer
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# Posted: 1 Jan 2012 06:06pm
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Prior to having our well punched in we had a 250 gallon (I think) orange juice tank from some food or restaurant wholesaler that we would get a local guy to fill for us for $50. He had a 1 ton firetruck pickup. that he would bring up and pump us up with. We used a 12v RV water pump to pump to the faucet.
I also used the 5 gal. water jug method, but it gets old. I had to drive 15 miles each way and only had ten of them crammed into a Jeep Wrangler.
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darz5150
Member
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# Posted: 1 Jan 2012 06:16pm
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I brought it to the local DMV for inspection and they said I didn't even need to title or liscense it since it was not for every day use. They said to put a slow vehicle plaquard on it and use it. Local police don't even give it a second look.
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dfosson
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# Posted: 1 Jan 2012 06:52pm
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Don't know the restrictions and requirements in your area but either a compost toilet or an incinerating toilet would be good choices over the long haul. With a compost toilet, especially if it has a below floor drum, you can get by with little to no power supply but incinerating toilets require LP gas and some dc power. If you can deal with this hassle, the incinerator would be a good choice. A metal roof, gutters and a 750 to 1500 gallon underground cistren should provide plenty of fresh rain water in NY. A little bleach will keep it cleaned up. An on demand pump and you have plenty of water for normal, routine needs. The gray water can be routed away from the cabin and into a buried 55 gallon plastic drum in a gravel pit. Don't know how much you plan to discharge but if its just a kitchen sink, bathroom sink and a shower or bath, the ground will absorb large amounts of gray before becoming too saturated and surface. Best wishes.
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brokeneck
Member
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2012 01:48pm
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We had a composting toilet in our original cabin before we went to a septic system. Worked great no smell no work -- and made super compost /fertilizer -- just remember the composter has to be in a heated area. We officially had a holding tank for the grey water -- but .....
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simon
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2012 05:04pm
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Opinions on this DIY kit?
https://www.thenaturalhome.com/greywaterdrywell.htm
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adakseabee
Member
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# Posted: 3 Jan 2012 04:55pm
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Simon, if you are going to relocate in NYS, check in with your local township clerk (town clerk) and/or building inspector. Either should be able to provide you the name and phone number of the county health department official who is reponsible for approving septic systems if you are not able to connect to a sewage line. Ask for the requirements the county imposes on new systems for your planned cabin. Normally, the number of bedrooms and the site soil conditions dictate the design and location of a septic tank and leach field. Don't build a cabin for full time use in NYS without first determining the requirements. Those requirements may also dictate where you can place the cabin on the site and location of a well relative to a septic tank and leach field. ALSO, depending on the length of time you plan on living full-time in your RV while building your cabin, they may permit you to use a composting toilet for blackwater and a greywater system similar to those described in the link you provided. I don't know of any NYS government agency that permits living full-time in any single family structure without it being classified as a domicile, and therefore, subject to all of the applicable building codes, including health department rules on sanitary waste disposal. I strongly recommend that before you build your cabin you determine the requirements for your site as they pertain to sanitary waste disposal (septic tank and leach field, connect to municipal sewer system, etc.) and water sourcing (drilled well, rainwater, or municipal supply, etc.). As obnoxious as it may be to follow the rules, failure to comply with them may cause you needless hardship down the road. Good luck!
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Anonymous
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2012 01:57am
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Simon, I did a little more research on the subject. Assuming your destination for your cabin is in NYS, there are some websites that you should check out and become knowledgeable so that the bureaucrats and septic system contractors can't pull the wool over your eyes.
Appendix 75-A Wastewater Treatment Standards - Individual Household Systems (effective date in Feb 2010), an Unofficial compilation of codes, rules and regulations of the State of New York Title 10, Depatrment of Health, Chapter II, PART 75, Standards for individual water supply and individual sewage treatment systems can be found at:
http://www.health.ny.gov/regulations/nycrr/title_10/part_75/appendix_75-a.htm
Appendix 75 discusses composters and greywater systems under OTHER SYSTEMS (b) Non-Waterborne Systems. I copied the language used as follows:
(1) General. In certain areas of the State where running water is not available or is too scarce to economically support flush toilets, or where there is a need or desire to conserve water, the installation of non-waterborne sewage systems may be considered however, the treatment of wastewater from sinks, showers, and other facilities must be provided when non-flush toilets are installed. Household wastewater without toilet wastes is known as greywater. (I included this item as it requires treatment of waterwater from those items that produce greywater.)
(2) Composters. These units shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturers instructions. The units shall have a label indicating compliance with the requirements of National Sanitation Foundation (NSF) Standard 41 or equivalent. Only units with a warranty of five years or more shall be installed. (Clearly, composters are allowed.)
(5) Greywater Systems. Greywater systems shall be designed upon a flow of 75 gpd/bedroom and meet all the criteria previously discussed for treatment of household wastewater. (This doesn't bode well for you unless you can convince your county health department official that your greywater treatment system meets the letter and spirit of Appendix 75 laws and regulations.
http://www.oasisdesign.net/greywater/law/, Gray Water Policy Center, is a compilation of grey water laws, suggested improvements to gray water regulations, legality & greywater policy considerations, sample permits, public health considerations, studies, etc. This is a good source to begin your research. It will point you to the NYS Department of Evironmental Conservation who in 2005 were tasked to perform a study of potential uses of greywater.
The results of that study were published Novemeber 2010 under the title "Potential Uses of Greywater and Reclaimed Wastewater in New York State" and can be read in its entirety at: http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/water_pdf/waterresue.pdf
Chapter 4 of the report covers greywater. I think it is instructive to quote from the chapter, "DOH staff consulted for this study noted that in New York, the plumbing code and state health code provisions always require on-site wastewater treatment systems. Untreated wastewater may not be released into the environment or reused. This is in contrast to permissive gray water controls in Arizona and New Mexico. Arizona is promoted as a model by gray water advocates (Ludwig 2004), giving guidance without state
oversight to gray water users of under 400 gpd. Table 23 quotes Arizona's guidance for persons operating under a Type 1 general permit for gray water. Arizona's definition of gray water is
equivalent to New York State's definition — omitting toilets, dishwashers and kitchen sinks. There are no statewide filing or reporting requirements under this general permit."
As it stands right now, greywater treatment requirements in NYS are NOT clear in permitting the kind of system you were asking comments about on that website you provided in your last post. It is my opinion that approval will rest on the enlightenment of the county health official responsible for granting permits for a greywater treatment system. I recommend that cultivate a good relationship with that individual absent any clear rules allowing a greywater treatment systems that would treat gray water from showers, bathroom and kitchen sinks, washing machines, and dishwashers. It is either this or stay under the radar and hope that you don't get caught before you can get an approved septic system installed.
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simon
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# Posted: 4 Jan 2012 03:10pm
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Thank you so very much..
I have yet to talk to them, but this information is helping me prepare..
I also found this about outhouses. Someone else might find it informative as well..
"The use of a sanitary privy (ie "outhouse") is only acceptable for structures or dwellings occasionally inhabited (such as a seasonal hunting camp) and only if the structure has no electricity and no water under pressure. Additionally, the construction of the sanitary privy must be sighted and approved by the WPA, and must be water tight (often referred to as a vault privy). An evaluation must be conducted with the owner and a WPA Inspector, a construction permit must be issued and meet all minimum separation distances as described previously. Any sanitary privy shall be constructed with vermin and insect protection. At the point that electricity and water are made available to said structure, the sanitary privy shall be properly abandoned and a WPA approved Onsite Wastewater Treatment System shall be installed."
So outhouses are allowed.. As long as they are sealed.. And no pressurized water, or electricity ran to the cabin. For a "seasonal" hunting camp..
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