22'x24' Saltbox Floorplans - Feedback Requested

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# Posted: 31 Oct 2022 12:16pm - Edited by: toddhlynch
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Hello,

My wife and I are about a year and a half away from building an off-grid cabin and I thought I would post our current thoughts for feedback from the group.

The cabin currently is planned as a 22'x24' Saltbox with the tall side with the majority of the windows facing South.

Note: in the floorplans, the South wall is to the left.

The land is 10 acres the Green Mountains of Vermont. Most of the time the cabin will be used by the two of us for weekend trips with our daughter. We would like our daughter to be able to invite a friend when she wants, if she doesn't like going, then we will never go!

We have considered moving the 1st Floor bedroom to the North West corner and moving the kitchen to the South East corner, but we like the cathedral feeling of the living area as it is. But having the full living space along the South wall sounds appealing as well.

Feel free to rip the plan apart... we have 18 months until a shovel hits the ground.

Insulated Slab-on-Grade, 2x6's on 24" centers. ZipR sheathing. Spray foam insulation. Likely metal roof and siding, or possibly a 1x6 Pine board rain screen for siding. Full septic. Deep overhangs.

Thanks in advance,
Todd

General Shape

1st Floor

Second Floor

Tim_Ohio
Member

# Posted: 31 Oct 2022 12:49pm
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Don't forget vented soffits with those deep overhangs and cavities in the roof to allow air to pass up and out whatever venting you choose (ridge vent-best, or box vents).

It looks like a nice plan. Hopefully, you will feel comfortable in the size.

Tim_Ohio

toddhlynch
Member

# Posted: 31 Oct 2022 01:53pm - Edited by: toddhlynch
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Quoting: Tim_Ohio

It looks like a nice plan. Hopefully, you will feel comfortable in the size.

I find that an interesting comment because it is something I have been thinking about this week and am struggling with.

I have always wanted a 'cabin', not a 'ski house'. We can afford bigger but I really want to keep in minimal. I know if I bump it up 2' to 4' in each direction the sleeping areas can become bedrooms, I could put in small closets, and I think it would slip from a cabin to a small house for not too much additional cost.

Exponentially better for resale if I ever choose to sell it.

I read your comment as "you are almost there, are you sure you don't want a little bigger".

BRADISH
Member

# Posted: 31 Oct 2022 02:26pm - Edited by: BRADISH
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Given its size, it feels like a lot of area is being eaten up by exterior doorways, and the clearance they will need to open. Always smart to have 2 exits, but I wonder if 3 will feel like a bit much? Not sure what you have planned in terms of decking, and if the exits are critical to that or not. Just something to think about.

Will there be any closets, or other hidden storage points? One gripe of my cabin experience was how much crap we had to bring along to our borrowed cabin. When building ours I tried to ensure we could keep what we wanted easily onsite, to lend itself to bringing less with us and more spontaneous outings. Not saying you need a warehouse up here, but from your current plan it looks like storage might be a bit tight? Will you have a shed or anything to help with storage?

Also curious behind the 2 bathrooms. Obviously priorities are different for everyone, but to me 2 bathrooms in ~700sqft feels a little unneeded? Especially since the lower bathroom isn't private, and easily accessed at the bottom of the stairs for the top bedroom. I think I would be inclined to skip the upper bathroom and opt for a slightly larger room w/ a closet for storage. At the very least I think I would cut out the upstairs shower, and throw a closet in its place. Especially if its typically only 2-4 people. Will this place need to be winterized when you're not there, or will you have reliable heating 24/7? Your current layout seems like it could be a bit much to winterize for short stays.

toddhlynch
Member

# Posted: 31 Oct 2022 02:58pm
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Quoting: BRADISH

Given its size, it feels like a lot of area is being eaten up by exterior doorways, and the clearance they will need to open. Always smart to have 2 exits, but I wonder if 3 will feel like a bit much? Not sure what you have planned in terms of decking, and if the exits are critical to that or not. Just something to think about.

Good point. The kitchen door is probably the one that I would remove. We had been thinking a sitting area on the south side and a dining area off the kitchen. I will explore combining the covered entry and the kitchen door.

Quoting: BRADISH

Will there be any closets, or other hidden storage points? One gripe of my cabin experience was how much crap we had to bring along to our borrowed cabin. When building ours I tried to ensure we could keep what we wanted easily onsite, to lend itself to bringing less with us and more spontaneous outings. Not saying you need a warehouse up here, but from your current plan it looks like storage might be a bit tight? Will you have a shed or anything to help with storage?

I once read the key to a clean modern home is huge closets and storage areas, and having not enough will probably lead to the space feeling cluttered. I was planning on hidden storage, such as having the sofas in the living area be built-ins with storage, and the space under the stairs, but that clearly is not enough. We will have a shed for some storage, but for things like ski boots you want them indoors. Thanks.

Quoting: BRADISH

Also curious behind the 2 bathrooms. Obviously priorities are different for everyone, but to me 2 bathrooms in ~700sqft feels a little unneeded? Especially since the lower bathroom isn't private, and easily accessed at the bottom of the stairs for the top bedroom.

Another good point, and I was writing 'minimal' in my first post I was thinking 'is two bathrooms really minimal?', but for the times that we do invite another couple to spend the weekend with us, my wife and I really want to have our upstairs space with our own bathroom. But thanks for the good
point, we will discuss it more.

Quoting: BRADISH

Especially since the lower bathroom isn't private,

We did this on purpose because we currently invite families to come camp with us and we hope to continue to do so, and this bathroom could easily be used by our friends staying with us in tents. It is a bit of a 'public' walk from the 1st floor bed alcove to the bathroom, but we like the idea of coming in with muddy boots and having the bathroom right there.

Quoting: BRADISH

When building ours I tried to ensure we could keep what we wanted easily onsite, to lend itself to bringing less with us and more spontaneous outings.

Our current thought is that outings will be very planned. No food will be left in the cabin and we will pack a cooler for each weekend on Thursday night and leave right after work on Friday bringing our gear for the weekend - one weekend skis, one weeks snow shoes, etc... But I see how this could limit use. Thanks.

Quoting: BRADISH

Will this place need to be winterized when you're not there, or will you have reliable heating 24/7?

Yes, it will be fully winterized. I am hoping to build it to 'Pretty Good House' standards and that it will not cost an arm and a leg to keep warm. Most likely propane for heat, I hope to keep the electrical load extremely low.

Thank you for your thoughtful feedback.

toddhlynch
Member

# Posted: 31 Oct 2022 03:01pm
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Quoting: BRADISH

I will play with bumping it up to 24'x24 and using the extra ~50 sq feet mostly for mechanicals and storage. Thanks.

Nate R
Member

# Posted: 31 Oct 2022 03:09pm
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How deep are you thinking for overhangs? What slopes are the roof?

I also had the same question about the 2 bathrooms. Do you NEED them? If you feel it's worthwhile, great. I could see the need for both bathrooms (simultaneous use, etc.)

To Brad's point about exits....my state has its' own code, and some very specific specs on 2 exits... A window COULD meet 2nd exit for egress, but standards on size, location, etc)....I can see having the 2 doors for code, etc.
One alternative is to order an outswing door and put a small roof over it if you are concerned about the space a door swing takes up. (See my build thread for pics of this.

)

-Nate

Tim_Ohio
Member

# Posted: 31 Oct 2022 03:12pm - Edited by: Tim_Ohio
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My comment about size was based on reading how some people expect more than they end up having since they mostly come from a larger house, where there is much more space. Since it's not a long term living construct, it's not necessary to have storage for all of the stuff you never really need but keep around because you think it might eventually be needed. However, if you think it will feel cluttered without somewhere to put stuff, then you should expand a bit or plan more storage friendly layout. Perhaps, you could get ideas from the "tiny house" ideas and maintain the same footprint.

Best of luck,

Tim_Ohio

jhp
Member

# Posted: 31 Oct 2022 03:29pm
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I'd close in the bedroom half of the top floor entirely, pushing the railing even to the top of the stairs, get rid of the catwalk.

Swap the kitchen for the living room - you'll spend way more time there enjoying the open ceiling.

Push the woodstove straight back to the wall next to the door, or put it in the "new" living room (where you have the oven now.)

Swap the bench area for equivalent upper and lower cabinets with countertops. Put a small stool to the left of the front door if you need a place to sit and put on shoes. I'd probably do more cabinets behind the stairs as well.

I'd probably skip the door in the current kitchen area, unless that will be a deck. If that's the case I'd move the opening left a few feet and put in a sliding glass door instead.

BRADISH
Member

# Posted: 31 Oct 2022 03:44pm
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Quoting: toddhlynch

Now knowing this, I have to revisit my bathroom question.

Do you intend to winterize it "once" in the fall, and leave it winterized? Or do you plan on using the plumbing regularly when you're there over the winter, and re-winterizing each trip?

If you go with the 'once in the fall' approach, then I think your current layout is fine - but I would have to again question the usefulness of two bathrooms if you then don't use them over the winter.

If you plan you use water whenever you go regardless of the season, and re-winterize when you leave each weekend during the winter), you might want to revisit moving the kitchen to the south wall (or south east corner / east wall IMO), as this would tighten up your plumbing runs substantially by being closer to the bathrooms.

Alternatively, you could throw in a hefty amount of valving so that you could choose which specific circuits to introduce water to when using (Kitchen only/ kitchen & lower bath / all) , rather than charging the whole system each time you want to use the water for a weekend.

In my mind it seems like a lot of line to blow out and potential water traps that could be problematic if you're charging the whole system and draining each trip. Being on a septic, you'll have 5 p-traps to deal with, and evacuating 2 toilet tanks. Seems like it could be a bit arduous for a quick weekend trip.

I tried to keep this in mind a lot when building my place. Mostly for winterization (we freeze 6-7 months), but also because I won't have a well on site (hauling water from spring 1/2mile away). I wanted short water lines for easy blow out, and less consumption to limit hauling. So all my water appliances are within 10ft of each other and the fresh tank.

Just something to think about.

BRADISH
Member

# Posted: 31 Oct 2022 03:49pm - Edited by: BRADISH
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Just noticed, are your stairs to final scale? I only counted 8 steps which would make them quite steep. Fine for the teens, but a bit of a pain for anyone over 40

For storage - I would definitely consider creating a closet under the stairway. Easy win there.

Also thinking that 5'x 5'4" area of the entry might lend itself well to a small loft storage area? Not losing much in terms of aesthetics since it is the low pitch side anyways. Could be accessed with a small stool or something.

ICC
Member

# Posted: 31 Oct 2022 03:50pm - Edited by: ICC
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I was composing while others posted so some of this may not now be applicable.

My first thought was the kitchen does not have enough counter space, unless one is simply warming meals brought from home.

A shorty under-the-counter fridge would not work for me, neither would a 2 burner cook stove (as drawn), but then if one was not cooking, only warming, a 2 burner might be okay.

Where is the water heater located? What type; electric or gas. Small ones can be fitted under a counter but that would remove usable storage space if it was under the limited kitchen counter space.

If the kitchen sink and bathroom could be closer together that could simplify the plumbing and make winterizing much easier if the space will not be left heated during winter absences. If low level heating during an absence is planned what is that heat source and where does it go?

For such limited kitchen space there seems to be too many bathrooms. I know, people today expect more than one, but I grew up in a house with a Mom and a Dad and four kids. One bathroom.

Do you actually need two floors? I know, a saltbox is two floors, but the upper level does not seem to be used enough to justify its existence.

Lofts are always warmer than the main floor, in my experience. If the folks downstairs are comfy the upper floor is too warm. Especially with a wood stove providing heat and there not being an air circulation system other than a ceiling fan or two.

Stairs: As drawn I see 8 tread rises. Building code allows 7-3/4" maximum rise. 8 x 7-3/4 = 62" . That does not compute to a comfortable main floor ceiling height. Or it is a gigantic stair step. Sure, a higher rise could be used but could be dangerous and would never pass a building inspection. Normal ceiling height is 8 feet. Add in joist depths, flooring, etc and the average stair would have 13 - 14 treads. Each tread should have a run of 10" so I think your run length is too short as well.

A two foot stair width might be okay in a small boat, IMO.

Three exterior doors in a 22 x 24 footprint is too many, IMO.

When someone enters in rainy or cold weather where do the exterior garments get put? Perhaps a real mudroom would be a good idea. Hooks around the walls for coats, a bench, a door in from outside and a door from there into the interior? Like days of old.

Off-grid:
Solar power? Batteries, inverter and so on go where?

toddhlynch
Member

# Posted: 31 Oct 2022 04:20pm
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Thank you everyone for the feedback. I need to go through it one by one and fully wrap my head around each of them.

Few things I immediately picked up as repeated feedback:

[ ] 3 exterior doors is too many on a 22x24

[ ] Stairs/ladder is too steep and small

[ ] Storage & Mechanicals need to be considered

[ ] 2 Bathrooms feels unnecessary

[ ] Kitchen is inadequate if I want to cook

I will keep thinking about all the comments, thanks again.

BRADISH
Member

# Posted: 31 Oct 2022 06:40pm - Edited by: BRADISH
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Quoting: toddhlynch

Thank you everyone for the feedback. I need to go through it one by one and fully wrap my head around each of them.

You are wise to heed and learn from the lessons of others!

Usually takes me 3 or 4 times of doing the same thing badly to learn

jsahara24
Member

# Posted: 1 Nov 2022 11:42am
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I didn't read through all the comments so i'm sure I'm repeating, but it looks like your wood stove pipe is going to go thru the catwalk...I'd eliminate one of the exterior doors and add the wood stove on the exterior wall. It will make it feel more open i think..

I think 2 bathrooms is unnecessary as you said its mostly going to be just your family. But I will say I added a second bathroom to my cabin and it makes all the difference when I get more than 10 people up.

Consider a covered porch/deck, its one of my favorite places to hang at our place.

Overall I like it....

Brettny
Member

# Posted: 1 Nov 2022 12:36pm
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Sorry I havent read through all the replys.

I would loose the 3rd entry door, loose the opening to below on the left side of the 2nd floor and move the wood stove to the wall.

3 doors in a small cabin is alot.
The opening to below serves no function and makes building it more complex.
Wood stove clearance to combustibles is about 36in with no heat shields.

Also sleeping in a loft with a wood stove below is pure hell. Put a door in the loft bedroom.

Atlincabin
Member

# Posted: 1 Nov 2022 06:17pm
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A couple thoughts:

Stove has insufficient counter space next to it. With the current arrangement, I would put it on the other side of the sink so you have counter space on both sides of the stove. Unless you are just using it for very simple cooking/reheating.

I would consider moving the wood stove to back up to the stairwell as it will give you more living space in the main part of the cabin. Put a heat shield on the wall behind it to allow for lower clearances.

Obviously depends on your personal preference, but for me the catwalk and sitting area would not be worth the effort to build. I would rather have higher ceilings and outside sitting area.

I agree with the unnecessary second bathroom unless you have a lot of big parties. My opinion.

Adding storage is a good idea previously mentioned a couple times, even if you are going to have a shed somewhere close by.

I also agree with the idea of minimizing the plumbing runs so winterization is easier. I thought long and hard about how to plumb our cabin so that it was simple to drain. Using sloped supply lines (doesn't need much slope, just enough to drain) is key. And I really like PEX pipe, as it is supposedly pretty freeze-resistant.

Closing off the upstairs is a must, from a "too hot with the wood stove going" point of view. We had a house once that only had a stairwell to the upstairs, but it was far too hot for comfortable sleeping when the wood stove was on. At a minimum, you should consider a door to that room and an opening window (or two).

You are wise to go with deep overhangs. More protection for the walls etc.

Bottom line though is build what you want rather than compromise because of someone else's opinions.

Cheers,

gcrank1
Member

# Posted: 1 Nov 2022 06:54pm
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After two places with wood stoves we determined they Take Up A Lot Of Living Space in a small cabin.
LP has been great.

Brettny
Member

# Posted: 1 Nov 2022 08:04pm
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One more thing. The way you have it layed out right now nearly all your roof rafters have to span the full width. What size rafters are you going to use that can clear span 22' in snow country? Your really in LVL territory there.

toddhlynch
Member

# Posted: 3 Nov 2022 03:59pm
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Quoting: Brettny

One more thing. The way you have it layed out right now nearly all your roof rafters have to span the full width. What size rafters are you going to use that can clear span 22' in snow country? Your really in LVL territory there.

I will obviously work with an architect/engineer before construction starts, but I assumed there would be a 24' LVL ridge beam and then the long rafters would be ~16' - but I have never built anything in my life.